Hanna (01:20)
Hi, Jonah. Welcome to the show.
Michael (01:23)
Thanks for joining us.
Jonah (01:22)
Thank you so much for having me. It's really nice to see your faces.
Hanna (01:27)
And great to see you.
Michael (01:28)
Likewise. Likewise. So what's been your go-to quarantining cocktail. What are you? What have you been drinking lately?
Jonah (01:35)
Uh, yeah. You know, I always go for the classics. So I think, uh, my wife and I have been, we're always drinking Manhattans or Old Fashions, or, you know, experimenting a little bit with different kinds of bitters, maybe like a black walnut bitter Old Fashioned, uh, maybe, you know, changing up the Manhattan a little bit so stuff like that, but we always kind of stick with the classics.
Michael (01:57)
We’re, we’re the same, it's always a twist on the classic. So we understand you went to school to study film. So, can you tell our listeners how you got into journalism and focusing on spirits, travel food and wine?
Jonah (02:11)
Yeah. So I studied documentary film in college and I went to Prague for a semester and did a documentary film program there. Um, you know, I guess documentary film and journalism are not too far removed, but actually, uh, I started out as a music writer. So I played in bands in a different life a long time ago and was really into music. I still am, but at the time I covered, you know, live shows, interviews, music reviews for a bunch of different alt weeklies and websites and magazines.
And the transition sort of came about because I would go to a festival in Iceland every year called Iceland Airwaves. And I would work for the English language newspaper there covering music. Um, and I started traveling around Iceland a lot when I was there and pitching some travel stories, uh, from, from those trips that I would do. And then I took a trip to Scotland in 2006 and drove around with a friend and visited, you know, maybe 10 different distilleries. I was always a fan of whiskey, but really got to immerse myself in it.
Um, and then it wasn't maybe until about five years later though, that everything sort of came together. And I think it was at a time when a lot of lifestyle publications were looking for whiskey and booze content. So the timing was good and I had a passion for it and had sort of taught myself a lot about it. So it all kind of came together there. So I don't write about music really anymore at all, but, um, I still love music, but booze and food and travel are what I really enjoy writing about these days.
Hanna (03:45)
With a pandemic, um, the media landscape has changed so much, but you've been very busy. You've been writing a lot. So what do you like most about writing about spirits?
Jonah (03:58)
Yeah. You know, when everything started, uh, when the pandemic started, I really wasn't sure what the next year was going to be like, as far as professionally, what I was going to be writing about. And I also, for a little bit was kind of like, I don't know if this is important. I don't know if people want to read about this and people are still gonna care about this. I think that, you know, over a couple of months, I realized that there's a lot of different factors as to why people still do and will continue to care about that. Number one, it's a lot of people's jobs are based on this. And so it's really important to them, obviously.
Um, people also, as far as reading about it, they need a distraction. They need to, you know, uh, separate themselves from reality a little bit sometimes and find out what, uh, uh, new whiskey releases or, or something like that. Um, and the other thing is I think that the hospitality industry in general, in general, although it's really having a hard time right now, it's not going away.
I mean, it's going to be here. And throughout this time, I've been getting a lot of assignments that I wasn't expecting to necessarily get in the beginning, but I think that it's just part of, um, the landscape is adjusting and shifting obviously, but there's still a lot of things that are remaining the same. Like distilleries are still putting out new products. Bars are still amazingly opening during this time. And, you know, uh, uh, bartenders are coming up with their own canned brands and, and, you know, everything is still continuing even during this hard time. So there's a lot to cover.
Michael (05:37)
Yeah, it's great that things are continuing a pace, and in fact, you know, a lot of liquor sales are in fact up during the pandemic as I'm sure you well know. So do you see that there's a greater demand for alcohol themed articles since more people are now at home and experimenting with being their own bartenders?
Jonah (05:56)
Yeah I think I've been getting assignments, um, where I'm getting quotes from bartenders, recommendations from bartenders. And again, that was another thing that at first I felt, you know, a little strange about because when, uh, there's a bartender who doesn't know if their bar is going to be open tomorrow, um, do they really want to be bothered with me coming to them, you know, for, for a quote about a recipe or a recommendation of their favorite spirit or whatever?
But I, I think that it is a really good way of keeping, uh, bartenders and people in the hospitality industry in, in the front of people's minds during this time, because we, we don't want to forget about them because it's such a, uh, you know, whiplash, like a bar is open one day, then it's forced to shut down the next day and they're maybe they're going to reopen. Um, so I think that, uh, it's been. You know, turning to bartenders during this time. And getting input from them has been, has been really valuable.
You know, and the other thing is, it's interesting cause not just the pandemic, but also the BLM protests that were happening over the summer, I think has played a big part in, in sort of the, the, the pool of sources that I'm turning to. And I think this was a blind spot, not just for me, but for a lot of people where you had, uh, a certain pool of, of, uh, experts and bartenders that you're turning to and might not have thought about how diverse that group is. And this is a very diverse industry.
So. I think, uh, I know that I am, and I think a lot of other writers are making a point of making sure that this pool of people that they can talk to represents the diversity, uh, that is in the industry. And it's, you know, you don't want to tokenize people either. You don't want to turn to someone just because it's a person of color or a person with a different gender identity, but you still want to incorporate all these different voices in, uh, as sources for your work.
Michael (07:49)
No question about it.
Hanna (07:49)
So thank you so much for giving the platform for our bartenders and business owners, to voice their opinion, voice their thoughts through your articles. So, you know, we thank you for continuing to bring the opportunities to our industry because that's important more than ever.
Michael (08:07)
And at the end of the day, bartenders will be, you know, tastemakers and trendsetters pandemic or not. You know, people view them as authorities. They take their recommendations very seriously and they have an important role to play in our society.
Jonah (08:21)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Hanna (08:22)
So speaking of writing, so you often write roundup stories, like best Irish whiskies, best mezcals and best of rums and more. So for our listeners, can you tell us what is a roundup? And how it's different from a feature store?
Jonah (08:41)
Yeah. You know, it's funny, over the past nine months or so I feel like that's, uh, with a few exceptions here and there that's, that's a lot of what I've been doing. Um, to be honest, it's not, uh, you know, I prefer to sort of really sink my teeth into a story, uh, where I can sort of have more of a point of view, but that being said, certain outlets that I write for, even with doing these roundups, uh, they encourage, uh, me and other writers to have a point of view, even in that, in that setting.
But basically it's, it's going to be, you know, whatever, uh, topic there is, whether it's, um, say best, you know, new rums or best Japanese whiskey or whatever, where you're compiling a list of different bottles, uh, could be, you know, mostly new releases. And then, um, as we were talking about before, a lot of the time I'm turning to, uh, people from distilleries or, or in the hospitality industry to get their picks or to maybe get, um, you know, uh, their take on, on why a particular release stands out and maybe how they use it in a cocktail or something like that. And I think that, for the outlets that I write for, these kinds of stories drive a lot of their traffic so, so that's why there's always a demand for that.
Hanna (09:51)
But I think also, you know, from consumer point of view or, you know, your audience point of view, you're looking at like, multiple options for them to pick and choose. You know, it's not only one recommendation from you, but it's like, you know, 10 to 12. And I think as you're bringing additional value to the audience.
Michael (10:10)
Because you're curating those selections.
Jonah (10:11)
Right, and I mean, I actually, one thing that I really like about it is that in general, I'm like, uh, choosing things that I think are really great and, and writing about them rather than picking things that I think are terrible and trashing them. I mean, I will, if something's bad, I will, I'm not afraid to say that, but I do, like you said, curating a list of things that I think are worth, um, uh, pointing out, especially if it's maybe from a craft distillery, which is a group that are really struggling these days and, you know, so it's a good way to, to highlight some things that, that needs some extra attention to.
Hanna (10:45)
Are there any spirits rounds up will you be working on in coming months where our listeners can be part of?
Jonah (10:53)
Yeah. So coming up, I do a lot of stuff for Departures, for example. So, coming up, I'm going to be doing a roundup of new rum releases. Um, and there's a bunch that have come out in the past couple of months. I'm going to be doing a Japanese whiskey, uh, roundup for them, as well. And, uh, there has been actually surprisingly, a large amount of new Japanese whiskey releases. Everything from small distilleries in Japan that are actually producing their own whiskey to distilleries that are sourcing their whiskey from Scotland and other places and, and blending and bottling it. Um, and then, you know, for Esquire, I'm always doing these updating best of categories.
I just updated a single malt whiskey category for them. Esquire is actually a good example of an outlet that even when I'm doing a round-up like that, having they really like for you to have your own voice in that. So it's not just like a list of things, but, you know, to write an intro and to actually give a viewpoint about, you know, things that are going on in the industry, uh, how the current situation is affecting it, um, you know, not be afraid to, to talk about any, anything that's maybe controversial that's been happening and then, you know, go into your list of, of what you think is best and why you think it's best.
Michael (12:15)
Do you recommend that folks send samples to you or what's what's, what's the best process for getting on your radar?
Jonah (12:20)
I think samples are always kind of necessary. I understand there are some releases that are really limited or are extremely expensive and it can be hard to get a sample out of some of those, but ultimately I really don't want to write about something if I've never tasted it myself. Even if it's, you know, like a little mini 100 ML bottle or whatever. Uh, but I think that's the best way cause otherwise you're just kind of guessing about it.
Michael (12:46)
Speaking of discovery, with travel very limited these days due to the pandemic. How do you stay on top of the industry, which is so global in nature?
Jonah (12:55)
Yeah, I think, uh, social media is a really important way to do that. I personally am not, uh, I could be about a lot better at social media than I am. You know, I have a minimal presence, I am using it, uh, going on Twitter and Instagram and to find out what's going on to find out, uh, new, new products that are launching, new bars or restaurants that are launching new initiatives that hotels might be taking.
I mean, you know, the reality, I was thinking about this today and I feel like I'm optimistic but realistic about what the next year or more, most likely, is going to be like. Um, as far as, uh, traveling myself, you know, I used to, before this was happening, I would travel maybe once every four to six weeks to go visit a distillery or go check out a hotel or something like that. I don't think that's going to happen again.
Anytime really, really soon. Um, you know, again, like, I, I hope that I'm wrong. I hope it's sooner than I think, but I think it's going to be at least a year before that kind of travel happens again. Um, so in the meantime, the, you know, things are still going on. Like we were talking about before and, uh, it is really useful to read what, what, uh, businesses are up to on Twitter. Hopefully they're making those announcements. And then also to, to find out from the people who are representing them, because, uh, it's, it is important to, you know, this is, this is an industry that is kind of being decimated right now. And it's really heartbreaking. And it's important to keep it in front of people's minds so that they, they. We all want to go back when it's completely safe to do so.
Hanna (14:39)
When you’re ready to travel again, what will be your first international travel destination and why?
Jonah (14:47)
I have a feeling it will be going back to Scotland, which is a very good feeling because I love Scotland and I love visiting the distilleries there there's, I've been to a bunch, but there's some I haven't been to, um, or possibly Ireland, same reasons. I'm really interested in going to France because there's a bunch of new French whiskey distilleries that are making some really, really excellent whiskey.
So that's, that's, I've been to France before, too to visit cognac and champagne, but I've, I've never, uh, visited any of the whiskey distilleries. So that's something I'd really be interested in doing. And, um, you know, also going. I don't know, maybe going to London and visiting some of the amazing bars there that I've had a chance to visit a couple of over the years, but it's hard to choose. There's so many, uh, international trips that are appealing right now.
Hanna (15:40)
London is one of our favorite cities, and they have amazing bars. So next time, when you're ready to go, let's go together.
Michael (15:48)
We'll go in a heartbeat.
Hanna (15:50)
So, beyond Esquire, you also write for Robb Report, Departures, USA Today, CNN, and many other top outlets. So how has your pitching process different between, let's say Departures versus USA Today or CNN?
Jonah (16:08)
You know each outlet has a very different voice, and so part of the challenge, I mean, as a freelancer, at least 50% of the time, is spent formulating pitches and then reaching out to editors. Hopefully it's editors you have a working relationship with. Sometimes it's not, sometimes it's new. Um, but basically, uh, you know, knowing what that particular voice is for that outlet, you know, for Departures, it's dealing with a lot of high-end stuff, not exclusively, but, um, sort of a, a broader take on things where, you know, it might be the a brief history of the Negroni or something like that. Or a roundup of the best red wine to drink this winter or something like that.
CNN is much more of a news oriented pitch, really focusing on things that are timely. Esquire, who I love writing for, as I mentioned before, it's an outlet that really encourages, uh, the writer to use his or her own voice in their work. And like I said, even with, if you're just doing a roundup of whiskey or whatever, to really not be afraid to have a viewpoint, um, and not just a list of things. So I, I really enjoy writing for them, but it's really a kind of knowing the audience and knowing what the outlet expects and it's, you know, it's kind of a juggling act. You have to really tailor your pitch based on that.
Michael (17:39)
Let's get a little bit more practical here for a moment. We understand that there are a ton of Zoom tastings going on, probably on a daily basis. I'm sure you get a ton of invitations. So what are some of the key factors that you consider when choosing one over another?
Jonah (17:56)
You know, at first I think I was saying yes to a lot more Zoom tastings than I've been saying yes to these days. I think it has to offer something that you couldn't get just from getting a sample and some background material and, and, uh, uh, doing it at home, you know, as a parent, actually with two small kids, the. This world of virtual tastings has actually kind of been amazing for me because it can be hard to get out of the house in the evening sometimes to go to a tasting.
Although I do really miss that, nothing beats, you know, meeting up with a bunch of people and having a tasting in person at a nice bar or a restaurant, and really getting to talk to people. So I think, you know, if you're really getting to, if it's a smaller group and you're getting to have, uh, a more intimate sort of question and answer period with, um, either someone who's behind the product or if it's a bartender who's really, you know, in charge of coming up with cocktail ideas or something like that.
Or sometimes there'll be a food element where you're actually cooking something at home, along with it. That can be fun. Although that's not something you want to do all the time. I think the main thing is what can that tasting offer that's a little different, that's a little more than you would be able to experience just by yourself, you know, with some tasting notes and a bottle?
So I have to say I think that the virtual Zoom tasting is something that is here to stay. I don't think that's going away. I think it will kind of be something that continues in conjunction with, uh, in-person events. You know, I was thinking about this too. I was in the future. There might be a tasting at a bar and maybe there are people who can't make it or people from California and the tastings in New York and they can actually set up like a camera so that you can actually log in from, from your home and attend that.
I don't know. I mean, it seems like a good way to make these things a little more accessible and, uh, frankly is probably a maybe less financial burden on the brand. If they can involve more people without actually having to, you know, physically serve more people, more food and more cocktails and that kind of thing. So I think that's something that's not going to go away.
Michael (20:18)
There's no question that Zoom has really democratized access, uh, for everyone. And to have these virtual experiences, at you know, no cost, is definitely a game changer.
Hanna (20:31)
And it's also efficiency, as well.
Michael (20:35)
Yeah we definitely see them persisting. So let's, let's say you're, you're a little known distillery or brewery or winery, and you know, you don't have a PR firm. Or, you know, they don't certainly wouldn’t have a relationship with you at this point. What, what are the secrets, uh, for pitching you and getting on, on your radar?
Jonah (20:52)
I mean, I think the first thing I think of when I hear that, or what I think of that question is definitely that these smaller producers should be pitching me and other writers because right now, uh, is a tough time for the craft industry. I wrote about this in a, in a lengthier piece that I did for Esquire a couple of months ago, but a big thing that people have been turning to over during the pandemic.
Or what actually Alan Katz of New York Distillery Company called “comfort brands” which are, you know, the big names, Jack Daniels, Jim Beam, Wild Turkey, love all of those brands, but for smaller producers, a lot of their sales and their business and the way of getting people to know their product is by people coming in to their tasting rooms and, and actually talking to people and tasting in person. And that's mostly not happening right now.
Michael (21:44)
Or having bartenders turn them onto a brand.
Jonah (21:46)
Exactly. Yes. Big, big component of that so I think, uh, smaller producers should just be, you know, sending an email and, and, and talking about what they're doing. What's new with them. A lot of them are actually involved in sort of, uh, interesting community initiatives, things that are you know, really, whether it's hand sanitizer, which is sort of not happening as much anymore, but was a big thing or, um, you know, focusing on inclusiveness in the industry, or you know, donating food to people who are in need.
There’s a lot of stuff like that going on on a, on, on a small, uh, on a scale with, with some of the smaller operations. And that's really, I think an interesting thing and a really great thing that they're doing. But also just, you know, there's always a story behind, uh, a distillery. T
here's always, you know, whether it's a couple of guys that used to work in finance and gave that up to start their own a distillery, or someone who's actually out on a farm doing like a grain to glass operation. So I think just sort of showing what separates that distillery or brand, uh, you know, from the rest. And there's always something, there's always like one little, you know, thing that, that makes it a little bit different. And so highlighting that and, and just, you know, reaching out with a personal pitch, a personal appeal. I think that that goes a long way.
Michael (23:14)
It's the story behind the bottle as it were.
Jonah (23:16)
Exactly.
Hanna (23:17)
So, we call our podcast Hospitality Forward because we truly believe in our industry that we are resilient. We are strong and we know we're going to come back better than ever. So having said that, what innovations are happening in the beer, wine and spirits industry right now that you think should continue in 2021?
Jonah (23:41)
Well, I have been listening to all your podcasts because I love it.
Michael (23:49)
Thank you.
Hanna (23:50)
Thank you so much.
Michael (23:51)
That means a lot to us.
Jonah (23:52)
So I know people have covered some of these things already, but I think it's worth mentioning again, you know, as far as the on-premise kind of thing and bars and restaurants, I think that outdoor seating, the to go operations. Things like that are going to continue and, and should continue. Um, also I've been, you know, there's even in my neighborhood here in Brooklyn, there's been certain businesses that have turned from just a bar or a restaurant to like a general store bar hybrid model, which I think is great. I mean, it really, I think it seems like from what I understand, from what I've been reading, it's a better business model for them at this point.
And that is something that can continue. Why not, you know, if you can go in and you can order a drink and you can also buy some small batch, artisanal flour or something as well, you know, why not? Um, I think as far as distilleries and spirits and brands a lot of states have eased up regulations on them being able to ship directly to consumers, which I think is fantastic. Um, you know, I'm not an expert in the spirits distribution system, but I know it's a complicated and circuitous path that, it's a difficult thing to maneuver. So I think for a distillery to be able to, you know, ship direct from their tasting room to a consumer, whether it's in-state or out-of-state, who wants to buy that spirit. And again, that's especially helpful for the, uh, for the craft industry.
Michael (25:22)
I mean, if people can't get to the distilleries, let's bring the distilleries to the people.
Jonah (25:26)
Exactly. There's I mean, there's no other way in some circumstances right now. So, um, I think in general, you know, there's been, uh, as we were kind of talking about before, there's a focus more on, um, social justice and, uh, being inclusive and, you know, it's, it's coming from directly from a lot of distilleries who are, who are showing their support for these causes. And I think that is, I hope something that is, uh, uh, going to continue and is not going to be sort of, you know, these things can easily kind of get forgotten after the noise dies down a little bit, but so far it looks like that’s hopefully not happening.
And, you know, I think overall this, this is this time I think is as hard as it is, it's also really bringing people together and, and showing that this, uh, uh, community is, is very strong and has a lot of ties. And there's of course there's competition between brands and distilleries and stuff. But overall, you know, it's like if one rises, they all rise. I think that's going to continue. Hopefully.
Michael (26:30)
Absolutely. And now for the listener question segments of our podcast, we have a question from Anthony Baker, Cocktail Professor at Momentum Mixology in New York City. He'd like to know what under the radar spirits categories do you see consumers discovering in 2021?
Jonah (26:48)
Well, let's see, I'm always wondering if the cachaça category is going to become better known, uh, sort of the Brazilian counterpart to rum for people that maybe aren't familiar. Um, it, I feel like there's been a little bit of a push for that over the past couple of years, but it hasn't quite, you know, gotten very popular yet. Um, uh, beyond that, um, you know, there's other agave spirits besides, uh, tequila and mezcal that, that are maybe getting a little bit more push recently.
Um, and I think maybe whiskeys from not the big producing countries like Scotland and Ireland and America, uh, and even Japan. But I think like I was talking before about wanting to go to France and visit some of those French distilleries. But, uh, recently there's been some amazing, uh, whiskey from France, from Italy, from Switzerland that I've gotten to try. Um, so, so smaller whiskey producing regions. I think that might be something that people are going to see more of.
Hanna (27:55)
Hmm. How about shochu from Japan? I mean, the summer Olympics are happening, uh, in Tokyo in 2021. So I think like Japanese spirits beyond whiskey, like a shochu, or some sort of those type of spirits could be also new discovery for the consumer?
Jonah (28:14)
Definitely and I think even, you know, some of the smaller whiskey distilleries in Japan are. They're aging shochu and then using those barrels to then age their whiskey. So there's sort of a tie in now that that might be, uh, uh, making people more aware of, of that category, as well.
Michael (28:31)
No question. Well, it's been so much fun talking to you, Jonah.
Hanna (29:03)
And thanks again for joining us today.
Jonah (29:05)
Thank you. Same to you. Happy holidays. It was great to see you guys.
Michael (29:07)
Bye-bye.