Episode #1 Robert Simonson, New York Times, PUNCH & Imbibe
Michael (1:35)
Hi, Robert.
Robert (1:36)
Hi.
Michael (1:37)
Thanks so much for joining us!
Hanna (1:39)
And great to have you on the show.
Robert (1:41)
Pleasure to be here. Pleasure to be talking to you.
Michael (1:44)
We call our show “Hospitality Forward” because we feel very optimistic about our industry. What do you see, or, what innovations are catching your eye that you think bars should adopt to take hospitality forward?
Robert (1:49)
Well it’s obviously a brave new world. It’s completely different than it was before. There are a few things that I would like to see continue after, and if, this all gets back to normal. The number one thing here in New York state is the to-go cocktails, of course. In the past you could only get, I believe, beer to-go. You could take it away in growlers from bars. But they allowed bars to do wine and spirits and cocktails and so this is a whole brave new world and I think to a large extent the people like it, the population likes it. I mean we all love to go to bars and we all love to talk to our favorite bartender, but the idea of bringing those, you know, really great drinks back home, is nice as well.
Maybe you want to do that one night, you want to not make cocktails at home, you’d just rather just go to your favorite bar around the corner and bring them home with you. I kind of like how the bars have turned into bottle shops as well. Another way that they’ve kept themselves afloat financially is just basically by selling off their stock and so, you, instead of going to the liquor store or the wine store, you could buy a bottle of wine and a bottle of spirits from the bar. I mean it’s just nice to have these new options and I don’t see why they shouldn't continue.
Hanna (3:24)
Agreed, agreed.
Michael (3:27)
Absolutely, like I think Iowa just passed a law saying cocktails to-go will be permanent.
Robert (3:33)
Permanent?
Hanna (3:34)
Yes.
Robert (3:35)
Wow, it’s been different in every state. I mean, some states were very slow to do this. It all kind of depended on the Governor of the particular state. It’s interesting and we could end up at the end of this sort of like we ended up at the end of prohibition with every state having a bunch of different laws that don’t correspond to anybody else.
But I hope... you know Cuomo’s been hot and cold on this. It was Cuomo’s idea in the first place but then when people started congregating on the sidewalks too much, he started getting alarmed.
Hanna (4:07)
I know.
Robert (4:08)
And you know he threatened to take it away. But, he is a politician so I think that he will listen to what the people want, what the voters want and I hope that he does. I know that there are some bills up in Albany to extend this, and I don’t think there are any bills to make it permanent, but there was one bill to extend it for two years, so hopefully that will happen.
Hanna (04:30)
Yeah, I mean we’ve been ordering cocktails from Middle Branch and the cocktail, you know, is just a perfect Negroni, simple as that, but it’s interesting how that one simple drink can transport you to a completely different world. It’s like having that luxury experience at bars or restaurants. So I think cocktails to-go should stay.
Robert (4:56)
Yeah.
Hanna (4:57)
And, I’ve seen you and your wife, Mary Kate, going to almost every bar and trying all the cocktails to-go on your social media. Which to-go cocktails really stand out?
Robert (5:11)
Yes, we have tried to try cocktails from everyone we know who is doing this you know and kind of like spread the love around and be fair because they’re all doing it to make money. They’re trying to keep some staff employed and sort of weather this storm out. So we’ve just spread it around a little bit here, a little bit there. Mainly we’re dealing with Brooklyn. We do have a car, but mainly you know for the first two, three months of this pandemic we were trying to be responsible, so we weren’t like driving into the city and creating problems for people.
We were doing Brooklyn and then after a little while, we started to drive in and when we would drive in, we would drive straight to the bar, we’d pick up the drinks, and then we’d come back. The amazing thing about this development is the high level of quality. You’d think there would be some kind of fall-off like if you take the cocktail and you make it and then you put it in a bottle and then it sits there for a half-hour, an hour and a half until you get home before you drink it. You would think this can’t be as good as the cocktail they make in the bar but to a large extent I’ve found that most of them are just the same.
These people know what they're doing so they also seem to know how to do takeaway cocktails. So you asked my favorites, it’s hard to say. We did Dante once, and that was fantastic. I think Bar Goto would have to get the prize for presentation.
Another interesting development is that they’ve had to figure out, ok we’re doing to-go cocktails, how do we do that? Some would put them in ball jars. Attaboy would put it in coffee cups. They’ve started to get fancier and fancier so they’ve got these beautiful little bottles and they’re making these beautiful little labels and so you’re just like given this wonderful little product you know, that’s just a pleasure to hold and a pleasure to look at.
You take it home and it’s interesting. It has forced everyone to become creative in a new way. Another favorite is Hunky Dory out in Crown Heights. Claire Sprouse, the owner of that has been a real leader in this during the crisis.
Hanna (07:24)
Yeah, she’s great.
Robert (7:24)
She’s doing a good job with the drinks and with the food. She’s had some pop-ups. It’s hard to imagine that there are actually still pop-up cocktail bars in troubling times but she has done it. She is on the cutting edge of safety; she’s incredibly safe. She takes every precaution.
Michael (7:44)
So clearly the bar industry is facing a crisis.
Robert (7:47)
Yeah.
Michael (7:47)
And you know it has been heartbreaking to see all these bars shuttering with many notable ones you know, not reopening. So what do you envision at this point as the future of the bar experience in New York City? Are we going to go back to the pre-COVID era or is it going to be new kinds of hospitality?
Robert (8:08)
Oh well I don’t think it can’t help to be different. I don’t think if we do indeed get back to the way it was, it’s not going to be for a while. It might be a year, it might be two years, who knows.
I mean, people talk about this coming in waves, and besides that, this whole crisis has also been kind of an opportunity. I think every bar and restaurant is looking at their business model and how they run things, how they work with their staff, how they communicate with their customers, how they serve. Everything’s going to be reformulated; everyone is going to be reconsidered. I don't think any of us have a good enough crystal ball to figure that out.
On the good side, I’ve actually been surprised and expected more closures at this point. I mean, at the beginning there were some pretty notable ones but a lot of these places seem to be hanging on and it’s like, I don’t know if they’re hanging on by the skin of their teeth or if it’s just a week by week thing, or if they have good relationships with their landlords. I know some of them got some of the government money that was offered to small businesses and I know some of them have actually made a really good go at this to-go stuff.
Hanna (9:30)
Right.
Robert (9:31)
There is a bar in Crown Heights I think it’s called Chavela’s, and Phil Ward, a well known bartender is working there and they pivoted to take-out and delivery. They mainly do agave cocktails, lots of margaritas.
Hanna (9:51)
Naturally, from Phil.
Robert (9:54)
Yeah and I talked to him about a month ago and he told me they had done $10,000 dollars on a recent weekend. And so, that’s not a small amount of money.
Michael (10:05)
Gives you hope.
Robert (10:07)
Not everyone is figuring out how to do this correctly or economically. I know a lot of people are struggling. It’s going to be interesting. I think one big change that we all know of and this could happen to other bars, is the model that Fort Defiance is following.
Hanna (10:25)
Mhm, exactly.
Robert (10:26)
Fort Defiance is a bar in Red Hook, a lovely cocktail bar and restaurant bar run by St John Frizell. He turned his bar into a grocery store, into a CSA, so all the goods he would have normally gotten in and served on the table in both his cocktails and his food, he’s just selling them to the people. He apparently likes it and he’s decided that. That’s a sure bet in the future, so he’s in the grocery store business now.
Hanna (10:58)
Yeah. I mean, I think it’s important for business owners to pivot the best they can during this tough time. And St John’s decision represents how fast his thinking is and that he is really trying to make it work.
Robert (11:14)
Yeah. His instincts have always been good. He’s always been kind of ahead of the curve on every new innovation, so some people might do that. I think the other big innovation which has come along with phase two is that everybody is doing outdoor dining/outdoor drinking.
So all over the city, just springing up like mushrooms, are these sidewalk seating enclosures. It looks just kind of like a big planting, like we’re all potted plants, and we’re sitting inside these wooden fences. That’s kind of cool.
You walk down the street and see it all. I have been holding off on that because I think it’s an unknown world. We really don’t know whether it’s safe or not, but if it does prove to be safe... Everyone likes sidewalk seating, everyone has always liked that, but only certain places in New York have gotten the license to do that. It would be nice to see it be easier for anybody who wants to do it.
Michael and Hanna (12:19)
Yeah, exactly.
Hanna (12:20)
So Robert, let's talk about writing. So what do you like most about writing about cocktails and bars?
Robert (12:29)
I like the ritual. There is a lot of ritual in making drinks and drinking drinks. The shaking, the panache, the toast, all that kind of stuff. I like the sense of community you find in bars. Bars can’t help but attract interesting personalities, so it’s very easy to write about these people because they’re not boring.
The owners or the bartenders or even the bar flys for that matter. And so unlike other areas I once wrote about, wine for a short period of time, it’s never a problem finding things to write about. That’s always helpful. You know, as a journalist, why should you have to struggle? You may as well be in a field where you can find good stories all the time.
Hanna (13:18)
Exactly. So you write for the New York Times and PUNCH and others. So how do you approach writing for the New York Times vs. PUNCH?
Robert (13:30)
Well you know, the Times is the paper of record, so in order for it to fall into the pages of the Times it has to be an important enough story. If it’s a breaking news story, it has to be big news. If it’s about a new personality, a new bartender, a new bar, you know, there has to be a reason for that. You know there has to be some kind of moment or importance about that new opening or that new person who has emerged.
Whereas other places, other publications and other sites, they might be able to write about any old trend that comes along. You know if there are three incidents it’s a trend, so you can write about it.
They may write about something more niche. A publication like PUNCH, I mean, they’re dedicated to drinking and spirits. So anything having to do with that subject is potentially a story. If somebody is...or everybody is, drinking Avocado liqueur, let’s write about that. The Times may say “who cares?” It’s not a big enough story.
You have to think about a broader vision because all the people that would read say, Imbibe Magazine, they’re already interested in drinks. They’re already interested in wine, beer, cocktails and spirits. You don’t have to convince them.
Everybody who reads the New York Times...they read it from all over the world and are interested in all kinds of things, so you better have a good reason why they should read your article.
Michael (15:08)
Makes sense.
Hanna (15:09)
Yeah, makes sense. So in PUNCH, your profile older bartenders that have been around, like you know, Jim Gallagher or Tara Wright. It’s so refreshing to see a 70-something bartender still rocking and so passionate for what they do. It’s lovely to see these types of stories. So how do you find them?
Robert (15:31)
So you’re talking about the column about the old guard bartenders?
Hanna (15:36)
Yes.
Robert (15:36)
So I think it was a couple of years ago. In general, at PUNCH we tend to interview and profile the young hotshot bartenders more in their 20s or early 30s working at cocktail bars. And we realized, you know, that is a very small segment of the bartending community and the other kinds of bartenders, the journeyman bartenders who work in the regular restaurants and in the steakhouses and in the pubs, they weren’t getting any attention.
They have something to say. They have some wisdom to impart ,and it’s probably wisdom that is very different from the kind you’re going to get from a Bartender at Death & Company or PDT.
So they gave me that column. I forget if they suggested it or if I suggested it. I think they may have, and I was the natural choice for that because, you know, I’m the oldest person who writes for them. So you know, old journalist, talking to old bartenders, it works.
So, where do I find them? I like, as you know, I like to go to old restaurants, the old steakhouses and places that have been in New York a long, long time. So I already said I knew some of them and once you know a few of them, it’s just like pulling on a string you just ask them, well, who else? And they all know each other. You know how young cocktail bartenders all know each other? They communicate.
Hanna (17:04)
Yes.
Robert (17:04)
These old school bartenders all know each other, too. That’s what I found out quickly. Like everybody who is like a lifer bartender, who is 55 years old or more, they know all the other ones and they drink at each other's places. It’s like a different sort of circle.
I’ve been actually wanting to write about this. It’s an alternate universe. It’s like a parallel bartender universe and these guys are nice.
I mean, it’s very different. They don’t really know how to make fancy cocktails or anything like that. They can make martinis, they can make a manhattan, they can pour a beer, a pour perfect Guinness, pour a glass of white wine, but it’s a different skill set. With them, it’s more about knowing your customers and developing a rapport so that they come back.
Hanna (17:59)
That’s great.
Michael (17:59)
They really understand hospitality.
Robert (18:01)
Yeah, that’s right. That’s right, and they know that most of their customers, at least in the places they work, they’re less interested you know, whether they’re getting the perfect daiquiri….whether They’re welcome, and they are treated nice and the bartender remembers oh yeah you like whatever, Miller High Life, so here you go.
Michael (18:21)
You’re very prolific in your writing, and you’re always finding these story ideas. How do they come to you? How do you find them? How do you find the sources for them?
Robert (18:32)
It’s feast or famine. Sometimes, you will have no trouble coming up with ideas and they just come one after another. Sometimes, it’s really hard and you can’t think of anything new and there’s nothing really new on the horizon. So I don’t know, you keep your ear to the ground to see what’s going on.
You’re always scanning menus, scanning announcements on social media, seeing what's new. Like you…I get tons of emails every single day telling me “we’re debuting our spring menu” or “here’s a new scotch that’s rolling out” and stuff like that, you just put two and two together.
Right now, it’s a very difficult time. I'm sure other journalists are experiencing this in the food and drink world, but it’s really hard to know what to write about because everything has just turned upside down. You can’t write about the usual thing. You can’t write about trends stories because it seems frivolous to do that.
Hanna (19:35)
Exactly.
Robert (19:36)
You obviously can’t write about new openings, because there are no new openings.
Hanna (19:42)
There are no openings.
Robert (19:44)
And so it’s actually closer to the news, than it usually is. Actual news, because things are changing and it’s a new landscape every week it seems.
Michael (19:54)
We noticed that there are some bartenders and bar owners out there who get a lot of love and visibility, but let's say some of our listeners out there haven’t really been on the radar. How would they break into that? How would they get your attention? And get you to write about them hopefully?
Robert (20:10)
Oh, I’ve been in this business for a while and so I’ve got my feelers out and I know a lot of people. So if something’s happening, the news gets to me one way or another. Obviously you can hire a publicist and there are a few good ones out there like you, Hanna.
Hanna (20:28)
Oh thank you.
Robert (20:30)
And that’s a very direct way to get attention because good publicists and good journalists have long standing relationships. I’m receptive to just a direct contact. I don’t mind that if you find my email or if you follow me on instagram and send me a direct message saying “I’m opening a bar next week.” I’ll listen. I may not write about it but I’ll listen.
Hanna (20:57)
Right.
Robert (20:58)
I mean, a lot of people blow off emails. I don’t do that. I don’t like that.
With all the protests and the Black Lives Matter things that have been happening in the past month or so, it’s become more important and urgent to give coverage to a more diverse cast of people in our industry. I think we all have to strive to do better in that area. I just finished a story about a black-owned distillery in Minneapolis.
Hanna (21:28)
That was lovely.
Robert (21:30)
Thank you.
Michael (21:32)
Great story.
Robert (21:34)
They are great leaders in their neighborhood; they've suffered through everything. They had to close their distillery. They made hand sanitizer like so many others, and then their distillery burned, and then the guy’s house burned, but they turned around and are helping the community by opening a food bank.
So, stories like that, I think there's a lot of room right now to find inspiring and inclusive stories.
Michael (21:55)
Hopefully that’ll be one of the silver linings of this whole situation.
Robert (21:59)
Yeah, I think as we’ve all gone through this period of turbulent time the past four months, it’s all very difficult and very challenging. But I think if you look closely, there are silver linings.
Things that have happened because of this pandemic have caused us all to slow down, examine our lives, and figure out what we like and what we don’t like.
I think it's probably the same with bars, you know. They’re given the chance like, well, this has been forced upon us and we can rethink our business and we can rethink what we want to do. There are a lot of, you know, hidden advantages. It’s weird to say that about such a troubling time, but there’s good and bad in everything.
Hanna (22:44)
True, very true. So we should talk about your books. Obviously, you’ve written four amazing books and in each book you’ve profiled the bartenders and featured a lot of bartenders recipes.
Robert (23:04)
Yes, yes.
Hanna (23:06)
How do you choose bartenders to be featured in the book?
Robert (23:08)
Well, it depends on the topic of the book. I wrote one book on the Old Fashioned, and one book about the Martini. And so then, Who do I want to talk to? Who do I want to feature? You start thinking about bartenders who are very serious about the Martini or the Old Fashioned, or are good at it, or have variations.
So you probably have a good idea of those already, and then you go out and search and find one. I’m working on a book right now that will come out next year about agave spirits and it’s all tequila and mezcal cocktails.
Hanna (23:42)
Amazing. All the things we love.
Michael (23:45)
Very timely.
Robert (23:46)
Yeah, but you know, as well as I do that when you think of agave spirits, certain bartenders pop into your mind.
Hanna (23:52)
Absolutely.
Robert (23:53)
The bartenders who love these spirits are obsessed with them, and they work with them constantly, so I already knew who I could turn to. And then, you find others who are more surprising and more expected and so I try to spread it around a bit because I don't want to use the same bartenders over and over again in the books.
I made a very concerted effort with this new book to get recipes from people who were unsung and underserved and deserve to have a recipe in a cocktail book.
I guess the question was, I don’t know, there wasn’t really a formula of getting into the book. Yeah, I just reached out to them.
Hanna (24:35)
Ok sounds good and looking forward to your new book.
Michael (24:39)
Yeah. Can't wait to read it.
Robert (24:42)
Yeah well, I haven’t told anybody about it so this is a scoop for you guys.
Hanna (24:45)
Scoop, wow!
Michael (24:47)
Yeah. Great. Breaking news
Hanna (24:49)
Breaking news. Love it. So is it the same publisher? Ten Speed Press?
Robert (24:53)
It will be Ten Speed Press. It will be next May and it's got a very simple title, Mezcal and Tequila Cocktails. That's it.
Michael (24:56)
Telling it like it is.
Hanna (25:01)
So easy to remember. It’s perfect. Ok Robert, so on each show we ask our listeners to send in some questions.
Robert (25:06)
Oh.
Michael (25:07)
So the listener is Dave Oz, who as you know, is the owner and operator of Bathtub Gin and The 18th Room in Chelsea. He’d like to know if you think more bars will embrace sustainability post COVID?
Robert (25:19)
I think they will, but I think they will in small selective ways. I think there has been an effort over the past two, three years to bring sustainability into the bar world, but it’s a very difficult proposition because bars are very wasteful places. There’s a lot of waste everyday and I don’t know if you can eliminate it all but if you can eliminate some of it, you know, that’s a step in the right direction so I think so. I think more will and I certainly hope they will.
Hanna (25:45)
I wish we could talk to you much longer but...
Robert (25:47)
It’s nice to see you finally!
Hanna (25:49)
No, it’s good to see you..
Robert (25:51)
I’m happy to see anybody.
Hanna (25:53)
I know. I feel like I see you everyday on social media but actually it’s nice to see you on screen.
Robert (26:00)
Yeah..Thank you for inviting me.
Michael (26:02)
I think it’s time for a Martini.
Robert (26:04)
Oh yes, that’s what I’ll have. It’s either that or an Old Fashioned. Maybe I’ll have both.
Hanna (26:07)
I’ll have both.
Robert (26:09)
Yeah, I’ll have a Martini and an Old Fashioned.
Hanna (26:11)
As a nightcap, exactly.
Michael (26:12)
Live a little.
Robert (26:13)
There you go.
Hanna (26:13)
Well thank you so much, Robert and we’ll see you soon.
Robert (26:15)
Ok, ciao!
Michael and Hanna (26:16)
Ok, bye bye, thank you.
Robert (26:18)
Bye.