Episode #10 Erica Duecy and Adam Teeter, VinePair

Hanna (01:22): Hi, Adam. Hi, Erica. 

Michael (01:24): Welcome to the show. 

Erica (01:26): Hi, thanks so much for having us. 

Adam (01:28): Yeah, thanks for having us 

Hanna (01:28): Great to see you both. 

Michael (01:30): For our listeners, could you tell us about VinePair? 

Adam (01:35) : Sure. So VinePair is a digital media, well, 360 media publication about wine, beer, and spirits. We were founded about seven years ago. We cover the gamut of the world of wine, beer, and spirits through culture, politics, business, everything in between. We have a digital media publication, a bunch of podcasts, actually now. We do live events or did live events before COVID. Um, we now do digital events, we have a print magazine, just a whole range of things. And we, you know, cover the industry, both consumers and for trade. Erica, did I do a good job? 

Erica (2:08): Absolutely. I think that was pretty good.

Hanna (2:10): That was a very good 60 second pitch. Tell us, what do you do day to day? I know you wear many, many multiple hats. 

Adam (2:17): So, initially I was acting as Editor in Chief, which is hilarious. While I am a writer, I had never been an editor before, but I mean, you learn very quickly when you're starting to bootstrap a business that like, you just have to do everything. So that was like the first thing we knew, like we needed to bring on people that are really good at this, which is why Erica is the Editor in Chief and Chief Content Officer. But so now I'm doing more of like what a CEO would do, so I'm obviously helping with editorial direction and things like that. Cause you want to make sure the brand stays very true to the vision that we started. 

But I'm also sitting in on ad sales meetings and in marketing meetings and doing, you know, I think as a business grows, you don't realize how much of it is just employer, employee development. Right. So dealing with employment issues and making sure that all the entire staff was working well together. I mean, we have an amazing staff and they work incredibly well together. 

But those are the things you also just don't think about when you start out and the only two people writing for the site are you and your co-founder, Josh. Um, you know, and so that's a lot of my day to day and that's a lot of networking and getting to know really amazing people. And now, as we've grown, we've also found that we've become a, you know, a very valuable source of information for a lot of people in the trade. 

So a lot of my day is spent like, catching up with like the CMO of Diageo or, you know, a person who runs a new craft spirit, like Ten to One Rum. And talking to them about like, what I'm seeing in the industry and what I think can help him. Um, and that's a lot of our day to day, talking to bartenders as well and talking to them about trends and things like that. So I spent a lot of my time doing that. And then that also informs the stories, right? Because we get to, you know, we get to give them some knowledge, what we think they should do, what we're seeing in the industry, what trends we're seeing. And then they tell us what they're seeing. We get to say. That sounds like a good story. 

Hanna (4:10): That’s a lot of work.

Michael (4:12): That's a lot of hats to wear. 

Hanna (4:15): So now, Erica, you are both the Editor in Chief and Chief Content Officer. So how do you balance these two? 

Erica (4:17): Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, it really breaks down to sort of the job function. So for the Editor in Chief role, what I'm really doing is managing the editorial staff, managing all of our freelancers and recruiting new writers for our stable of, um, you know, hundreds of writers around the world that we are working with at any given time. 

And also setting editorial calendars really, um, and doing a lot of research, talking to people in the industry, understanding what is happening, both from a trends perspective, from a cultural issues perspective, um, from business perspectives, like, reaching out to people and staying on top of what's happening all across the industry. Um, and then the Chief Content Officer role is really more about the long-term editorial strategy. So for that I'm collaborating with Adam and Josh, and really coming up with the long-term vision for the brand. 

And what that can mean would be for example, um, you know, new podcasts, new products, new verticals, um, where are the places and the opportunities that we have to grow into in the future. So, um, that's kind of the two different sides. I'd say one is more of the immediate, shorter-term side. And then the other one is much more of a long-term strategy and vision type role. 

Michael (5:40): And who, who would you say are your readers and listeners?

Adam (5:42): Ah, so I mean, our readers are very much both people who are consumers, as well as trade. We’re the largest publication about alcohol in the United States. We reach about 32 million people every month. And we are, we break down basically like, probably not going to get you like the real stats, but probably 70% of the readership are consumers and 30% are trade right now. Um, and they're millennial and young Gen X.

They're very evenly split, um, women and men. Um, and yeah, I mean, they are people who are really interested in the world of drinks. They're either interested in the world drinks because they access the world of drinks through travel or to escape, or they love making cocktails at home, or they love going out to bars or in their trade who are trying to, you know, learn the business or up their game or find out, you know, the newest techniques. Um, and so, yeah, it's really a really amazing picture of the entire. 

Michael (6:35): Hm. So speaking of editorial, how have you guys navigated coverage during the pandemic while still connecting with the industry? 

Erica (6:43): Yeah, I think, you know, we did exceptionally well in that we were the very first publication in the drink space to really acknowledge and jump on the pandemic. On March 15th, I believe, we launched our live blog before even New York had shut down. We launched a live blog, looking at what was happening all across the world. 

And we knew it was going to have a huge impact, that there was not going to be just two weeks of a shutdown. We were already hearing from our contributors globally that their cities were deeply impacted. And so what we did was set up a live blog so that people from within the industry could understand what was happening on a more global scale with regards to the impact on restaurants and bars and brands and brand sales, more generally. 

So, from that point, we really deep dive, uh, deep dove into covering all aspects of it. So, you know, we would be doing features about pivoting to alcohol delivery for bars. We would be looking at the closure of on-premise establishments and what was happening to the talent and the people in those establishments, where were they going? How are they adapting? And so we really, you know, moved into pretty aggressive reporting right from the get go. And that has continued throughout the pandemic. 

So we still have a live blog on the site. Um, if you go to the website, you'll see at the top, it says live blog. You know, what's happening in the industry right now. And that coverage evolved into our next round series. So, um, we have VP Pro, which is our VinePair Pro professional series. And that has a newsletter, it has data reports. It has a whole range of offerings. And then we also have this next round series, which, for our podcast, for example, it occurs in between the main podcast episodes, but that is talking to innovators. People who are pivoting successfully, people who have ideas for moving forward. And it also talks to personalities within the industry about how they're coping with the challenges at a really unprecedented time. 

Hanna (9:09): Seems like massive content creation. 

Michael (9:10): Yeah, it's a heroic effort. 

Hanna (9:12): So obviously there are other media outlets covering the same subjects for the past six months and also in the coming months. But, what makes a VinePair story, a VinePair story? 

Erica (9:24): Yeah, I mean from my perspective, I think what VinePair’s, you know, USP, our sort of unique proposition that we bring to the table is three-fold. So one is utility. We are really focused on our listeners, our readers, on the consumer. So it's not what we want to write about all the time. It's a lot about how are people out there? Like, what are they looking for and how can we help them? So that means understanding that people at home don't want to make cocktails with eight ingredients. You look at our recipe database and the top 50 cocktails have four ingredients tops. The Martini, the Margarita, etc, etc. All of these.

Michael (10:08): Sounds like our home. 

Erica (10:09): Exactly! Or new ones, but you read a lot of other publications and they're doing these extensively long, complicated recipes and that's just not what people at home are interested in. And we have the data to show that. So, I'd say one thing is that, you know, with utility, we're also very data driven. 

So we are looking at what is our audience interested in, what are Nielsen's and IWSR and all of these other sales numbers saying about what's happening in the marketplace. And then that's how we respond. Um, you know, and we're also value focused. So what are the best beers and wines and spirits? You know, we may taste 50 bourbons at a time to come up with the 10, the 10 best in each price bracket. So, you know, our audience is looking for price-to-value ratio. You know, they're willing to spend, but it better be worth it. And we will cut through the noise to help them understand it. So that's number one, that's utility. 

Two is I'd say we're voicey. We are not scared to shy away from any fight. We like stories that are controversial. We are passionate. We are opinionated and we don't do these types of articles that other people do. They're like, here's some information about the Loire. No, if we're going into the Loire and we’re covering the Loire, it's going to be an exciting story, we are not just there to sort of regurgitate a bunch of facts as if you're reading an article, you know, in a textbook.That's not what we do. So two is voicey. 

Three is, I'd say, we are completely and we have no pretension whatsoever. Our ethos is that we just don't have time for that. So we are very no BS. You know, and I say that allows us to approach a variety of issues, whether it's professional issues, we know that there's a lot of people with advanced readership, but we'll go back and we’ll explain simple concepts quickly just to get everyone up to speed.

And it helps us tell stories about harassment, about sexism, about, uh, about people in the industry whose voices are not heard. I'd say that one of the things that I'm most proudest about is our personal essay program. So I worked closely with professionals throughout the industry to tell their stories and to bring it to, to be a platform for those voices that aren't heard. 

Michael (12:37): That's why you guys are so successful at what you do, because you do have a point of view. You're not, you're not afraid to express it, but you're not looking to be snobby about it. So, Adam, you've been writing your weekly column, “Ask Adam” for a while now.

Hanna (12:47): Hashtag “Ask Adam”!

Michael (12:50): Speaking of lack of pretense, I just love it. Cause it's a lot of questions that, you know, even I would like to ask, but might feel self conscious about cause maybe that's too obvious, you know, like what's the difference between club soda and sparkling water...

Adam (13:02): Yeah. 

Michael (13:03): You guys answer it and answer it without any judgment...or anything like that. How do you come up with these questions? How do you not run out of them? 

Adam (13:11): They're almost all reader-submitted. 

Michael (13:12): Are they really?

Adam (13:13): People email in, yeah. So, I mean, sometimes it's editorial too, where we'll, we'll say, oh, we think this is a question that someone wants to ask that they probably aren't asking, but we've seen it based on other things that people are reading and, or things we see on social. 

So some will ask you in the comments of an Instagram post, or someone will ask it on Twitter or whatever, but yeah, it's really coming from the community. Um, it is very funny to me that out of all the things I used to write for this site, the thing I kept was this advice column. My mom loves it. 

Hanna (13:45): Aww, that’s all that matters. 

Michael (13:46): Gotta keep mom happy. 

Adam (13:47): But yeah, it's fun to write because I think a lot of times it is questions, like you said, that are just, I've had them, you know, and I've been like, oh, but I don't want to ask because like, what if someone judges me or what if someone says, I can't believe you're asking that question. Like, didn't you know that already. And I've never had more anxiety than when it comes to asking questions related to learning about drinks. It's always been really scary. 

And I don't know why that is, but you find that reaction from almost everybody. Scared to go in and ask a wine shop professional about a wine, and then you don't really know, they talk to you and they say something that you don't understand. And you're just going to say, wait, I'm sorry, I don't know what that grape is or, you know, to ask a bartender the difference between rye and bourbon. I mean it's really common and I think. You know, as industry professionals, we need to realize even more than we already do, that these are questions that people have and that we need to be more open to making them feel like they're in a place where they can actually ask those questions.

Michael (14:53): So it takes a big dose of compassion. 

Adam (14:54): Totally. Right. 

Michael (14:56): I salute you for that. 

Adam (14:56). Thank you. 

Hanna (14:59): Would there be any particular topics or subjects that you will be focusing on in the coming months about, you know, for your editorial or your podcast? 

Erica (15:08): Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think there's so many interesting things happening in the drinks space right now, even in this very challenging time. So, you know, just as an example, I think, I've been really excited by seeing all of the bar talent that is branching out into new ventures during COVID. So, you know, it could be Julie Reiner with the launch of her social club, or her canned cocktail line. Or Aaron Polsky's LiveWire Drinks.

You know, I just saw that The Morris, a bar in San Francisco, just bought a canning machine, so we've seen this huge escalation of canned cocktails as a trend. And I think that this may be the beginning of a future where bars are the flagships in the city. But what you really know a brand for, like, Death & Company or Dead Rabbit, is millions of people could know those brands around the world for their RTD canned cocktails, or other products. 

So I think it's an interesting time for brands, and, you know, for bars to be thinking about how can we go beyond our existing ecosystem and reach customers in different ways. I think that, you know, that could take the form of live event series, like Speed Rack type events. You know, there might be other type of events that can take the form of mixer companies, like non-alcoholic mixer companies or RTDs, whatever that may be. So I think one of the things that we are always looking for is innovation. What are the new innovations that are happening in the space? That's something that we really love to focus on. 

Hanna (17:01): It’s all about innovation. A week ago we went to four different bars just to check out their canned cocktails. 

Michael (17:07): They were all quite good. The quality is right up there. 

Adam (17:09): It really is.

Hanna (17:11): It’s fascinating how craft bartenders are now turning to canned cocktails. Again, everybody's pivoting. You cannot just do the same thing over and over. 

Michael (17:20): It's a matter of survival now, but…

Hanna (17:21): But also innovation…

Michael (17:23): Innovation, and post pandemic these could be valuable revenue streams that they'll keep forever so we can see a whole different ecosystem. So what about people who want to pitch stories to VinePair? What's the best route for them to take? How should they go about it? What approach works? 

Erica (17:45): Sure. I would say the easiest way to pitch us is just editor@vinepair.com and that email goes to several people on the editorial team. When you're pitching, I'd say, you know, send us an initial email and then follow up after, you know, a week or two. We definitely read everything, but we can't respond to everything. 

The volume of pitches that we get is really a lot. But I'd say that one, you know, one of the areas that is very successful for brands to pitch into is op-eds. So if there is a winemaker or distiller or a brewer or someone in the industry who has some type of unconventional take on something, or a controversial opinion, or they want to take a stand on an issue, that's a story that we're interested in talking to them about. 

So, you know, that could be why the conventional wisdom about barley being flavorless as a component of whiskey is all wrong. And that actually, you know, you should start sourcing from artisanal barley makers. It could be a range of things. So, we are always looking to find out what are the, you know, unconventional ideas. How can we challenge the long held beliefs? What are the new ideas that are coming into this space? And I'd say those are the areas that have the most traction, pretty much for, you know, for any brand or company looking to work with us.

Adam (19:17): Yeah. So now I'm going to put my journalism professor hat on real quick and just give some other do not dos. So one, if you're pitching us, know the publication, so you need to have read us, you need to know what we write about. You need to know what we've written about. So even if you have, if you have an original pitch, Google and see if we covered it first, right? Don't pick something that we may have already written about that you never checked the publication to see. 

Another big no-no, don't pitch us and five other places. Like, if it feels like a pitch that wasn't tailored for us, your email gets deleted. It gets read, but then it gets deleted, right? Because this was definitely like a spray and pray pitch, right. They went out to 20 publications with the same three cocktails or they, you know, they came to 20 publications with the same news, right? Like tell us a piece of news. That's really, if you're on the brand side and if you're a writer comes with a story that you're like, this is perfect for VinePair and then, you know, give us some time to respond and then look, it's fine for you to say, hey, you know, Erica, Adam, whoever, I haven't heard from you guys in a while, I'm letting you know I'm taking this to other outlets. 

That's fine, because you know, we also, we're not here to hold you back as, as the brand of the writer. But, if you have gone to other outlets and they've already picked up, you should also understand it’s probably not going to be covered by us, right. Like most, and I would assume most publications are the same, they just maybe won't tell you as bluntly as I am. 

We're all competing. So we're all not going to cover the same thing. So if you already got picked up by another publication that's of our size, we're probably not going to pick it up. And I think that's really something to think about. So think about why us compared to someone else and then go from there.

Michael (20:55): That makes a lot of sense. 

Erica (20:57): Yeah. And then I'd say the thing is just know that we're data focused. And so, for example, we know that Cognac is up triple digits off-premise right now. Now would be a good time to come to us with, uh, some Cognac pitches. You know, tequila is crushing it off-premise what are some tequila pitches. So if there's, you know, if you're either a brand or writer pitching, there should be a reason of why now as well as why us. 

Adam (21:26): Yeah. And building on that data, I'm going to take the other side of it to also know that we're, we're going to call you on it if you tell us something is the next biggest trend and you actually can't prove it. So if you are in a small bubble, I live in Brooklyn so I'm gonna pick on Brooklyn, if you're in a small bubble in Brooklyn and you're like, “Hey, everybody is drinking…you know, this kind of, I don't know, this one kind of Sherry or this very obscure mezcal brand, it's the next big thing,” you'd better be able to prove it, because again, we are a national publication. 

And so while we are obviously informed by the city we live and work in and the other great cocktail and drinks cities of the world, we do write articles that everyone in the country can relate to. So if you're talking about a really, really tiny obscure trend, it actually better be a trend and a trend that we see that's actually growing, not one that's like between three friends at three bars, that they all own, you know what I mean?

Michael (22:22): Don't try to make up a trend. 

Adam (22:22): Exactly. 

Michael (22:23): All right. And now our listener question segment of our podcast. Amy Racine of JF Restaurants would like to know, what kinds of beverages are millennials gravitating towards as kind of their entry into the world of wine, spirits and cocktails?

Adam (22:45): We talked about hard seltzer, right? I mean, that's not the main one actually. I mean, it's becoming one recently, but there’s so many. I think the one thing to think about in the same regard as every generation before millennials, and generations after, is the generations don't want to be boiled down to like the one thing, right? 

So all millennials are getting into drinks through hard seltzer. There's a ton of millennials getting into wine through Burgundy because they had access to it, because they come from privilege and there's tons of millennials that got into wine through, you know, Casillero Del Diablo. 

And there's a lot of millennials that got into beer through Budweiser, and others that happen to live on a college campus that was near a good craft brewery. So, I think the more important thing is when someone gets into alcohol, when someone gets into drinks, to help them on their journey and to let them ask you questions and you know, and help show them. If you like this, try that. That's more, it's all about discovery, as opposed to just, this is what the millennials are drinking.

Michael (23:40): Do you see that millennials are finding their way in a different manner than previous generations? 

Erica (23:46): I do. I think the influence of the hard seltzer in college campuses can not be overstated. I mean, you know, I make it a practice to read, you know, talk to people that I know who are younger cousins, friends to reach out and just ask people all the time. What are you drinking? What are you drinking? 

And, the hard seltzer among on college campuses, you know, last year and you know, is very big. But I'd say that also Gen Z, who are now of drinking age, we're seeing a more early adoption of spirits. And so, whereas, beer and wine maybe had more of an edge in the past, it's really hard seltzers and spirits. And kind of across the board, we're seeing, you know, this year was a banner year for tequila. Bourbon is always right at the top. 

So I think, you know, in terms of what younger people are drinking, you can expect that some of the more classic hard spirits, the bigger categories of hard spirits, as well as convenience, the convenience play with hard seltzer and with canned cocktails are probably going to be where you're seeing the most movement.

Adam (25:04): Yeah, and this is just a hunch, but I do think in terms of like appeal or finding why RTDs and hard seltzers, like Erica has heard me make this point so many times, but like people are also going to go to drinks that they only touch themselves. So there is still, and there's going to be a profound impact on this generation in terms of germs, and what we share and what we don't share and things like that. So when you think about it, now you can get a reservation at some of these restaurants like Blue Hill at Stone Barns. And they have you pre-order the cocktail, and the cocktails come in already individually sealed bottles that you're pouring into your glass. 

Like this is what's influencing this consumer base. So, you know, being able to share a six pack of canned wines, as opposed to everyone touching the bottle and pouring from it, especially when you're getting together with friends, I think is going to only increase as people are concerned about cleanliness. And again, I don't fully, it’s not going to impact me, because I was already used to touching the bottle and passing it to people. But I think a younger generation, it 100% is. And you know, that's why we're going to see this very fast move. I think a lot more individually packaged wines, beers, spirits, RTDs, seltzers, etc. Just because COVID is influencing that every single day. 

Hanna (26:26): So we call our podcast Hospitality Forward because despite the challenges we are very optimistic. So what innovation have you seen in our industry that should continue or adapt to move our hospitality forward?

Erica (26:40): Yeah. I mean, I think right now it's a very tough time for hospitality. And you know, unless there is some governmental relief for restaurants and bars I think the short term looks very challenging. And that's why I see a lot of opportunity in pivoting and doing brand extensions, doing the RTDs, doing the delivery, bottled cocktails and so forth. But I don't even think that makes up generally a fraction of the overall operating costs for restaurants in bars that they're going to need to sustain until there's a vaccine available. So, you know, my kind of takeaway from everything that I've seen is it's going to be a period of holding on and building ancillary revenue, extensions, until operation can resume.

Adam (27:39): Yeah. I mean, I think if we're gonna say there's going to be any silver linings out of this, I do think we're hopefully going to see more outdoor seating. And then we saw that the Mayor of New York, you know, guaranteed that now in perpetuity, which is amazing, it's making New York feel way more European than it ever did before, which is pretty awesome. It still remains to be seen if the to-go cocktails and the to-go wines will be allowed long-term. 

Because we did a podcast about this, but I think, you know, the wholesalers distributors are very powerful and I think there's going to be a lobby from some of the wine shops, et cetera, who don't want added competition on their blogs, but I don't think it's hurting either. I think the wine shops are making plenty of money now. I think they should allow the restaurants to continue to sell to-go. 

I think, you know, there's something beautiful about that. If that's allowed to stay, that you discover a bottle of wine on the wine list while you're having dinner and you get to take that wine, by the way, I'd take another one at the, you know, without the markup, home, if the restaurants are doing that, that's a very cool thing to allow them to be able to do still moving forward would make us more like Europe, right?  

It would really would make us, you know, a place where people could really truly feel like they're having discovering at restaurants and they know where to find the wines they found at that restaurant. So those things are positives, but I agree with Erica, like we need to vote and we need to make a lot more noise to our elected officials that this is unacceptable and that we need real you know, bailouts, we need actual financial compensation from the government in order to help these businesses survive. 

Because right now, you are putting them in a position where you're basically, like sink or swim, with all these restrictions and it's not fair, and we're not going to have an economic recovery in this country if we don't take care of the restaurants, which are a massive employment base for our country. So I hope the one innovation comes out of this is that we all get along and are politically active. And pay a lot more attention to the political process. That's the biggest innovation coming out of COVID. 

Hanna (29:40): Couldn’t agree more.

Michael (29:41): This has been a great conversation. How can our listeners find you? 

Erica (29:45) : Yeah, I think the best way to reach out would be, um, both Adam and I have individual social media handles. 

Hanna (30:31): Great.

Michael (30:32): So thank you both for joining us. This has been wonderful.