Episode #12 Shivani Vora, New York Times, CNN, Forbes

Hanna (1:18): Hi Shivani. Welcome to the show. 

Michael (1:19): So great to see you. 

Shivani (1:19): Thank you for having me. 

Hanna (1:20): So Shivani, before the pandemic you often traveled around the globe including an annual trip to India, your birth place, and which is one of my favorite destinations, as well. So what do you miss most about travel? 

Shivani (1:30): Believe it or not I never thought I would say this. I miss flying. I miss the act of packing a bag. And, you know, thinking about TSA requirements. And am I going to be able to take these toiletries on, and going to the airport. I really miss that.

Hanna (1:49): Same here. We miss packing something and going someplace so I think we are all in the same situation.

Michael (1:56): Yeah we completely agree. But on a professional level, Shivani, you've been writing for The New York Times, CNN, Forbes, American Way, and many other outlets. Can you tell us how these outlets and the stories you write for them are different and who the audiences are? 

Shivani (2:13): Yes. Um, I think the audiences are would-be travelers. Right? Or even people who don't necessarily travel as much as they would like, but they travel through, you know, wanderlust, as we say. I think that CNN is definitely more international focused. So when I get anecdotes from people, we have to make sure that you're getting people in Asia and in Europe. 

Um, The New York Times is very safe for luxury real estate, you know, which is kind of very luxury real estate focused. I would say is definitely more, you know, it's very international, but more, not budget, but more, you know, price conscious. Whereas Forbes is luxury. Anything goes, you know, the more luxurious the better. So the demographic is definitely different. You don't have to think about the price. 

Hanna (3:06): Mm. So, uh, Shivani, you often travel with your family, including your husband and your two adorable girls and sometimes with your father who's a great photographer. So what do you find most rewarding and maybe the most challenging about your family travel?

Shivani (3:30): Um, I think the thing about family travel is definitely, you know, my kids now they're almost eight and they're, you know actually my older one is 12, and you can only set so much of an agenda with kids. Okay? I can set an agenda if it's for myself and go, go, go from morning until night and do this and do that.

But when you are traveling with others, especially your own kids, you know, you do have to deal with whining and you have to deal with adapting to them. So while I might be ready to go at, you know, 8:30 in the morning and go all day and shop til I drop, you know, sort of speak kind of mentality, they're much more like, “Okay, mom, we need chill time. We want to sleep in. We don't want to go out late. We don't want to do this.” 

So, you know, you always have to accommodate and adjust accordingly. So there's compromises that you have to make or different things that I would see that, um, you know, that they would like to see that I wouldn't necessarily go to see. I mean, there is a benefit to that. The benefit I think is certainly that, um, you know, I do get to go to different museums or see different attractions that if I was on my own, they wouldn't be on my radar, but because they're with my kids are, you know, they are, so there is a plus side. 

Hanna (4:37): We miss them. So give them a big hug from us.

Shivani (4:41): I will. Thank you. I still remember you find their lemonades. 

Hanna (4:48): Oh my God. I remember that. Are they going to do it again?

Shivani (4:50): I hope, let's see. I don't know who's buying lemonade nowadays and COVID you have to be careful so right? 

Michael (4:54): We’ll do it. We’ll line up. 

Shivani (4:57): Ok good. 

Hanna (5:00): We’ll come and get it. 

Shivani (5:01): Yes. 

Michael (5:04): So Shivani, your trips obviously are highly personal. So how do you create your stories around them?

Shivani (5:07): Um, how I go? I think you go in with an idea of what you want to write. I think when you get to a destination, and I think I drive the people on the ground crazy who I travel with. It's, you know, my DMCs, the tour people, I have great contacts on the ground. And, um, when you go there, you see something or something else excites you that you hadn't thought of or the situation changes, and I'm like, actually I know we were supposed to go see this, this, and this museum and go to this neighborhood, but now I realize there's actually this other outer neighborhood that I want to explore that has much more, and there's a burgeoning art scene there, so you know what, let's go there. 

So I think it's literally like, the stories evolve as I see. I think if you go in with a preconceived notion and a firm idea, I've quickly realized that that doesn't work unless I've been to the destination, know it really well. I'm going to go to Paris as an example. Right? And right on the bistros on the left bank. Right? I would never write that story, but you know, as an example. Right?

And I know that there's all these new charming bistros on the left bank. Well, I mean, that's not going to be the same case if I go to a place like Croatia. Or if I go to a place like Rwanda, the story unfolds in front of me. So you go in with an idea, but you let that experience dictate your writing. 

Hanna (6:22): Beautiful.

Michael (6:24): Interesting. So you recently wrote a story for CNN Travel about family and friend reunion trips during COVID. How did that story come about, and how did you find your sources? 

Shivani (6:34): I just put feelers out there, and that was actually really surprising that how many people had had stories to share on this. Someone said something to me actually. “Isn't it wild. I'd love to go visit my family in California but I live in New York, and I have to quarantine if I go to California. They come here, right, and they're going to have to quarantine when they go back. So what we're thinking or when they come here before they come here and you know what, so we're just trying to find a state that we could meet, where we can actually vacation where there's no quarantine rules.”

I was like, “Oh, wow. I didn't even think of that.” Like, now you can actually fly and go see your family, right, if you're open to the idea of flying and actually like, it's not that easy, it's not like, okay, you can just pop over there without quarantining.

So there's all these restrictions, and then I realized there's actually people, a guy who I interviewed for my story, he said, “I can't go visit my friend in Chicago. You know, I'd have to quarantine coming back. She can’t visit me here because she’d have to quarantine going home. Right? Or she'd have to quarantine coming here before she was allowed to be here.

So guess what, we met in Turkey because in Turkey, you don't have to quarantine anywhere.” So it's all these interesting situations that have really come up, but that simple reunion trip. It's not like let's pick a destination and go, it's like. Let's find a destination that we can actually go to and then go. 

Hanna (8:02): Wow. Such a clever idea. 

Shivani (8:03): Pretty fascinating, you know? 

Michael (8:04): There should be an app for that that tells you where you could meet in the middle.

Hanna (8:07): I love that idea. 

Shivani (8:10): I know, right?

Hanna (8:11): So you also profile a lot of people, from designers to pop artists, to architects and celebrities. So what are the top three important factors for profiling them? 

Shivani (8:25): Um, I think it's that, you know, to be asked about who they are, I think at a personal level, without being too imposing. So to get a sense of their personality. I always like to ask people rather than kind of broad questions, be very specific questions. “What's your favorite thing to do on a Sunday morning? What's in your what's on your nightstand? What do you do to wind down after work? What's your trick to,” if it's a globe Trotter, for example, “to beat jet lag? Everyone just wants to know how people beat jetlag. “What's your tip that actually beats jetlag.” 

So it just depends. You want to ask about their career and things like that, of course. But, you know, little questions, specific questions that give you insight, who they are as people. Right? Their daily rhythm. I think that's what makes profiles so interesting. Anyone can Google and read about a person's career. Right? Cause you can only get through actually interacting with them. 

Hanna (9:30): Very true. So, in the coming months, what kind of personalities will you be looking to spotlight? Obviously, we have so many amazing personalities in our hospitality and travel industry. 

Shivani (9:45): Yes. I think that, you know, the people that'd be really looking to profile, are, you know, as, again, as the world opens up, um, and you know, who are kind of the leaders coming out of this space? Who are the ones really driving the change? Whether it's, you guys know better than anyone, how hard the restaurant and bar industry has been hit.

Hanna (10:03): Oh my God yes. 

Shivani (10:04): Right. So who are the people really helping to turn that around? Um, who are the leaders? So it's not so much about celebrities. I mean, you know, it's about, you know, who are the people driving change? I mean, in the hospitality industry, there's hotels out there, you know, in developing countries and even in the United States, small family run hotels, where their business has been pummeled. But their owners, individual owners are really, you know, stepped up to help the staff. To you know, really take care of their families during a challenging time. And those are the people I want to highlight, you know, kind of the heroes of COVID yeah.

Hanna (10:43): I mean the humanity, I think that's important. 

Michael (10:47): Yeah. I mean, COVID is really changing a lot of the dynamics and, you know, you recently did a great piece in American Way about luxury spots in Los Cabos. So given the current economic situation, are you looking to profile more affordable spots, as well? 

Shivani (11:01): I think so. Absolutely. And more closer to home spots. I think when you do go closer to home, you can find there are great destinations, no matter where you live in the world, and automatically you cut out the price of the flight, right? So, then you can build beautiful a trip around just, you know, locally owned hotels that aren’t expensive and go to locally owned restaurants and really support the local economy while having a terrific experience as well, too, without spending a lot. 

Michael (11:36): Agreed.

Hanna (11:37): Okay. Yeah. Agree. We see a lot of local travel happening in New York State, but also, you know, a lot of people are checking out the Long Island wineries a one hour drive from here. So yeah, we definitely see a lot of local travel happening. 

Michael (11:55): So out of curiosity Shivani, as people are still trying to maintain social distance and looking to find new ways to travel, do you think people are more interested in vacation spots that offer more of a cocooned experience?

Shivani (12:07): Oh my gosh, hands down, yes. I mean, they want seclusion. They want privacy. They don't want to be around others. I mean, for the very wealthy, sales on private islands and trips to private islands are up. I mean, look at information and speaking to resort owners and hotel leaders, their villa products set in private locations are up. I mean, people don't want to be in cities. They don't want to be around people. They just want to be alone. I mean, there's just not even a question in my mind about that. 

Hanna (12:40): You know, what's interesting about the restaurant and bar industry, you know, before, you know, when you have a private room at a restaurant, it wasn't very hard to sell. But these days a lot of people are requesting like a private room where you can dine with your friends and family for like 5 to 10 people. So we heard a lot about the private dining room becoming very on demand. 

Shivani (13:02): Yes. Yeah. Absolutely.

Hanna (13:07): So Shivani, let's talk about booze writing, and I know you love tequila and me too. Recently, you wrote an article for Forbes.com on the best and most expensive, extra tequilas. So my question for you is how do you choose your spirits category and the specific bottles to spotlight? 

Shivani (13:20): I think I go through really tasting things. Um, that's one thing I try to do as much as I can. Yes, you want to look to trends and what people are gravitating toward, and that's really important as a writer to do, but I think it's things that are very personal to me.I think things that are personal to me, that I'm excited about. Or that I'm interested in as just a person is what I would do on a Friday night or Saturday night. 

That's what I want to write about because the piece has come across that much more, um, genuine. Right? And that much more impactful because I'm not just, you know, writing like a third person. It's like I'm writing like a human being. As this is something that I, that I'm into too. So this is my experience with it. 

Hanna (14:18): Definitely. Tasting is believing. In terms of finding a source, do you use social media to identify story ideas or products? 

Shivani (14:22): Absolutely. It's huge. You can't do it without social media. I think absolutely. It's really important I think .

Hanna (14:30): Among the social media channels, which channel do you think is most effective for you? Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn?

Shivani (14:35): Um, I think definitely, actually I'm not on LinkedIn. I should be, but I would say definitely Instagram. Definitely Instagram is huge. 

Hanna (14:37): Yeah the power of Instagram. You can’t avoid it. 

Michael (14:45): Shivani, we noticed that there are a number of members-only places that are opening up that you've written about. Uh, like a members-only social club in New York and a private wine club in DC. Do you see this as a new trend coming? Is this a new way to socialize? It's a safe distance from the crowds?

Shivani (15:15): I think so. I was just in New Hope, Pennsylvania and a really high end hotel opened there. Beautiful hotel, the River House at Odette's, and they have the members-only roof club. In New Hope, Pennsylvania! I mean, you know, it's got 200 members and a waiting list of 500. I do think that one thing about the cachet of private clubs that are just very, very much in. You know, that are really, really nice. So yes, I do think so. 

Hanna (15:45): So speaking of hotels, while many hotels are on pause, while many hotels are going very strong just like the one that you mentioned. So what kind of hotels are you looking to spotlight in the coming months? Is it services or is it technology innovations or best F&B offerings? 

Shivani (16:04): I think it’s safety and how they are post-COVID. You know, that's what it is, you know. What do they really look like post-COVID? What is the spa experience really like? Like, what is the dining experience like? You know, what's changed? I think that's really nice. 

Michael (16:20): You know, we have listeners in 20 countries around the world, including North America, Asia and Africa.

Shivani (16:22): Very accomplishing, yes.

Michael (16:30): And you know, obviously a lot of them want to be featured in your stories, be it The Times or Forbes or CNN or elsewhere. What's the best way for our listeners to pitch you? 

Shivani (16:35): Uh, definitely email. I do try to respond to every email out there that I get. Um, and even I may not do it right away, but I would say definitely email. With a good kind of compelling, you know, kind of a headline about what a sum up of what it is, because we all get a lot of emails. I know you guys get a lot of emails right? To kind of wait through it. 

But, um, yeah, I'm definitely open to pitching. I love hearing, you know, innovative ideas. I love hearing from people. Um, so please, you know, reach out, reach out, reach out. I would love to hear from you all. 

Hanna (17:08): So do you open every single email? 

Shivani (17:10): I do. I try. Yeah. 

Hanna (17:12): Amazing. So when someone pitches you via email, what are the three top do's and don'ts to grab your attention? 

Shivani (17:22):  would say that, I mean, maybe just sum up your idea right then and there. I think keep it short. I think that, you know, a lot of the emails that I get are really long and that you don't actually really know what they're pitching or what the product is or what they're trying to say. The big thing is just because we all have that kind of ADD mindset, right? When everyone is multitasking and doing so many things, send an email. Have like three bullet points on top to sum up boom, boom boom, you know, these are the three things I think. Keep it simple for sure.

Hanna (17:58): Okay. Three bullet points. We can do that. 

Michael (17:59): And now for the listener question segment of our show. It's from a designer, Amy Morris, of the James Beard Award winning The Morris Project, who's collaborated with Danny Meyer, Nancy Silverton, and James Lowe of Lyle in London. Amy would like to know how much the visual aspects like the interior design and brands entity draw you to a particular restaurant bar or hotel? Is it just something that feels great when you see it, or is it a new perspective or a new material? 

Shivani (18:30): So I think it's probably all of them. I mean really all of them, you know, I think all those factors kind of play in when you're looking at a property, for sure. You know? Um, is it new material, new perspective? For sure. Absolutely. 

Michael (18:50): All right. So we call our podcast Hospitality Forward because we're optimistic about our industry. What innovations are you seeing that you think places should adopt to move hospitality forward? 

Shivani (19:00): I think that a lot of nonprofits are being set up across the industry, which I think is huge. I think an innovation like what you guys are doing, right? Highlighting that people in this industry are huge. So hats off to you guys and congratulations because, um, you know, you kind of keep it alive. You kind of keep a spirit alive. 

And I think it's not just about the financial aspect of it although that's important too, because we all need money to live. It's about the spirit. It's about the heart and the soul. And a lot of that was gone and then everyone was such shock when COVID initially happened. I think it's about keeping that alive. 

And I think the other thing that I've been seeing is, is the pivoting, which is a word that everyone has used, but I've seen, you know, again,wine bars turning to the most robust thriving wine stores, to-go dinners from Eleven Madison Park. Um, you know, sommeliers turning into exporting wine, so they may not have that job in the public space, but they're still bringing wine to people cause people are certainly drinking a lot of wine right?

Through their connections in the industry. I think it's just that innovativeness and that entrepreneurial spirit that's really come out that is going to push this industry forward. It has to, it has to, there's no choice, but to survive. 

Hanna (20:20): Alright Shivani, it has been so great. And, um, where can our listeners find you?

Shivani (20:27): Here. Always at my desk. 

Michael (20:50): That’s easy.

Hanna (20:52): Yeah. All right. Thank you so much, Shivani, for your time for 

Shivani (20:55): Thank you guys for your time. Thanks for having me, it's been a pleasure.