Episode #17 Joshua M. Bernstein, New York Times, Bon Appétit, Imbibe

Hanna (01:17) 
Hi, Joshua. It's so great to see you. Welcome to the show. 

Joshua (01:21) 
Hey, thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it. 

Michael (01:23) 
Delighted you could join us. 

Hanna (01:24) 
So Joshua, you've been a freelance writer for over 20 years, covering beer, spirits, food, and travel. A lot of coverage is beer related, so why beer? 

Joshua (01:36) 
Yeah, I think for me, I mean, you write what you know and you write what you love which is the easiest answer. But you know, I think I came to New York City, gosh, more than 20 years ago. And like a lot of 22 year olds, I wanted to go to bars and hang out. And so I did. And the beautiful thing about New York City is that the bars were open until four in the morning.

And so when you've got a 22 year old liver, it doesn't really much matter what you do, but I'd wake up in the morning, and over time I started writing about the bars. I got a job with the New York Press, which is alternative weekly, TimeOut, New York Magazine, all these places, so then I started writing more about bars, restaurants, all these things I was experiencing. And then slowly over time, probably around 2005 or six, we really started seeing this new wave of beer start taking off in America. And I started writing about it. I was curious, who are these producers? What are they making? Where are they selling it? And then one thing led to the next and that's been a beat for 15 years or so now.

Michael (02:38) 
Well, let's dig a little bit deeper into this. You know, you've spoken about some of the different outlets you've written for and write for. Given they have very different readerships, how do you tell your stories to each one? So how is like a New York Times story different than an Imbibe story different or a Bon Appetit story?

Joshua (02:58) 
Yeah, I think that's a great question. I think the hallmark of any good writer is having a malleable voice and being able to understand that I'm, I'm not just writing for myself right here. I like writing, but there's writing for yourself and there's writing for an audience and I'm writing for an audience. So my editors and the owners and the publishers want a specific voice that aligns with themselves. So for Imbibe, it's a bit voicier, I gotta be more magazine style storytelling.

Um, when I write for the New York Times, you're definitely serving as the Rosetta Stone to translate these trends to a broad uh, a national and much of the times like international audience. You know in the end you always have to let the editor’s comments, questions, guide everything. I mean, if you want to run your own publication, you can, but I'm working for somebody else and they’re looking to turn my stories into content for their audience.

And so I've learned to be very, when I get edits, I just tend to shrug my shoulders. It's like, yeah, I'll change that for you. There's no problem. And, you know, fight back when you feel strongly about it, but in the end you just need to realize that you're creating content for different audiences across the board.

Hanna (04:03) 
And then speaking of different audiences, you wrote an article on Imbibe Magazine on how the beer industry is dealing with COVID-19, from offering home delivery to beer by mail to virtual tastings. So what other innovations are you seeing? 

Joshua (04:23) 
You know the word pivot has been widely overused in the industry, but I prefer the idea of adaptation. How can you adapt again to be able to find, to draw an audience in? And so right now with winter hitting indoor, not being something that I think we're gonna be able to have right now, how do you create an outdoor space that's going to be comfortable for people?

So I'm looking across the country right now and interviewing people about how they're making spaces. And so for example, people are installing ice rinks from scratch. I kid you not like building ice rinks on their property. You see people doubling down on fire pits, you see other people creating, um, you know, pass cards where if you drink X number of beers in the temperatures below 45 degrees, you get a free beer on them. And so it's different ways to get people to really embrace the cold in a way that they wouldn't have before.

So, that's what I'm seeing right now, is people are realizing that winter could be worse in a lot of ways, and nobody is sitting around waiting for people to tell them that they can or can't do something. They're just trying stuff. Um, Solemn Oath Brewing outside Chicago just installed what they call like, their dome forest, of a bunch of those plastic igloos, but they surrounded this parking lot, they turned it into this dome forest and surrounded it with mulch and fake trees.

So like, you're walking through a forest, And so when it snows outside, you're almost like living inside of a snow globe. So people are trying to find any way, shape and form to get people to still be outside. I think the most valuable drink you'll ever sell as a business, the drink that you make and that you sell on premise. And so, that means liquid going into a glass usually.

And without that, you're just not making your margins. And that's why it's really imperative for people to give people an outlet for their community because we can't be cooped up again. And going out, we saw what that did for a lot of people's psyches and so just seeing humans. So people are trying to create places that are as safe as possible to attract customers. 

Michael 06:30) 
I mean, you know, one thing we could say about the craft beer industry is this pension for experimentation in terms of flavor, pushing the boundaries, taking things, you know, to the maximum, in a lot of respects. But you know, we've been hearing in the pandemic that people are hunkering down psychologically and going for more of what they know, comfort foods and brands and flavors that they're familiar with. Do you think this in turn is affecting the craft beer world? And if so, do you think its ethos will change?

Joshua (07:03) 
That’s a good question. I think what we're seeing with people turning back to flagship brands and things like that, is you have to think where people are shopping. People are shopping at grocery stores. They're looking to get in and out pretty quickly. And that benefits brands are already in-package. So we saw 12 packs of beer really take off in the pandemic.

And so 12 packs of well-priced beer, Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, uh, like 12 packs of Dog Fish 60 Minute. All of these beers that people could buy in bulk that were trusted name brands. We saw a lot of that happening. And so in the same sense we're seeing flagship brands that are really being able to keep all of these legacy breweries afloat right now, not even afloat. But some of them are having incredible years right now, with growth and we're returning the growth because people are, I think, forced to return to comfort and people want things they know and love in a lot of ways too. But this has not stopped experimentation at all.

I mean, I think there's still not even around the edges, but there's still deep, wide experimentation going on every single day. You're just not able to hop from brewery A, to B, to C, to D to try them in the same way that you may have on a previous Saturday, let's just say in Brooklyn. Well, people are starting to treat breweries much more as provisioned runs, whereas the same source as a specialty food shop, you go to once a week to get your salami and cheese, but now you're going there to get your double IPA done with marshmallows.

Then your Imperial stout that tastes like peanut butter. And so you're seeing these lure beers are ways to get people to come in and make a new, fresh stop. People are curious, I'm hearing stories about people they're like, oh, when you're presented with a menu, a dropdown menu of ABCD, it's like, oh, maybe I'll try all these. I'll try this weird thing on top of this. And so I think.

And that gets people to come back and make orders again and again and again, cause a big brewery is going to be able to survive on these 12 packs of people coming into grocery stores, but smaller breweries need to give you a reason to try something new again. So innovation, innovation, I wouldn't say it's gone underground, but it's like what you go to these breweries sites. You're going to see innovation or make stops. You'll see deep innovation, but grocery stores are cutting skews. They're not taking as many chances. So that's why in our traditional channels, you're seeing a lot more people making, um, you know, they're not going out and trialing new brands in the same way they may have previously.

Michael (09:33) 
So circling back to some of the broader trends, you know, we're seeing the hazy IPA style being such a runaway success. I mean, what does that say about the evolution of the American beer palate? Are we over extremes of bitterness and other permutations? You know, what does it say? 

Joshua (09:50) 
I think that we can't just use extremes to get attention. I think bitterness is a very…so we'll do the coffee analogy. So espresso, the basis of any coffee drink like a latte, cappuccino, cortado, is espresso. You know, espresso by itself does have fans. Sometimes you want to dilute it down like water like an Americano. Other people want to dump to have it topped with like whole fat milk and whipped cream and sprinkles on top. The hazy IPA is kind of like that, where you're topping it with a little bit of like whipped cream as making something and making it, making something a bit more accessible to the masses. And it's a sweetness.

It's basically sweet tropical fruit. I mean, sweet fruit juice from drinking Hi-C as kids to getting older, it's something that we've been primed to love. So I think what people have done is eliminate this barrier toward disgust, which bitterness can elicit on there too, and created a pathway to pleasure for a lot of people. And so I don't see that hazy IPA is not going away anywhere.

It's still on the ascent and that's because it's bringing more people into beer and it's also forcing us to reframe what language we use. And I think language is sort of this barrier that we haven't gotten over with beer, that people all the time are like, I don't IPAs, they’re are too hoppy. And I'm like, okay, what does that mean?

I'm like, well, I don't like all the bitterness, but I really like this hazy IPA. And I'm like, okay, the way we describe stuff is the excess of hops created, you know, you can have a beer that has a lot of hops. It's not a lot of bitterness, or you're gonna have a beer with, you know, a lot of bitterness and a lot of hops. I mean, It's just how you use the varieties. You use them so we've not been really good at the language, but I think the hazy IPA has been a great emissary to bring people in to flavor, turning people on to what's possible with flavor. And once you, once you make it easy for somebody to like something that makes it easy for them to try other stuff as well too. 

Michael (11:52) 
It could be a gateway to, uh, other beers.

Joshua (11:55) 
Yeah, they're gateways, they're gateways - they're open gates and not barriers, I guess, would be a way for people to get in there too. You start off, some people want to have flavors that are familiar to you. If you're just trying something different, it's easy to love something that tastes like pineapples or orange juice, because you know, we had like cocktails we drink, or having beers with wine like Margarita things. All these things are very familiar to us. You just build up what’s familiar, then take it to what's esoteric.

So I think once you get people in there, enjoying hazy IPAs you can try the wide world of beer too. And I think we've had, there's definitely been a, some classic styles. I've had a hard time of it of late, but we're starting to see around the edges, like pilsners, lagers, full flavor, and starting to make more in-roads because people realize they can only consume so many. You can only consume so much alcohol, your body's got a finite amount of liver tokens you can spend on a daily basis.

Hanna (12:56) 
Yeah. What I found interesting is Nielsen reported that non-alcoholic beer has increased nearly 38% during a pandemic. So what do you think is driving this and do you see nonalcoholic being a permanent part of this drinking landscape? 

Joshua (13:15) 
Um, I think right now it’s somewhat of a discovery phase for a lot of people. I think that the numbers have definitely increased for NA beer, but you're talking about those numbers, the acceleration are built on the small base. Like what, what were those small numbers at first? And so, yes, it may have doubled, but doubling the number of four to eight is not the same as like, for a beer category, that’s 500 doubling to like a thousand. So we're still seeing the very early stages right now, too. I think NA beer allows you to have discovery and trial because the liquor laws allow you to ship directly to your door.

You don't have to go when there's no alcohol involved, you can ship the beer directly there. So you're getting to people that are logging online and buying stuff, getting it shipped right to their doorsteps. And it's fun. I think there was definitely a “quarantinie” fatigue. I think I read about how we had an initial like three to four weeks where a lot of people were blotto and just kind of like, well, at 2:00 PM, a new whatever, and then nothing matters anymore. Nihilism, you know, paved with double IPAs and Old Fashioneds.

Um, so I think, but you realize that the reality does kick in eventually. And so I think it's, this is providing something that's a little more flavor than, you know, something a little more flavor, but it's not your seltzer. There's something a little bit different on there too when you want to try a different beverage. It's still so early right now, we're talking about a category exploding when we're separate from one another. And it's, it's easy to do something when you're at home, but I'm curious how it's going to be rolled out when we start interacting with the world. I mean, there are tons of NA beers coming down the pipeline for 2021. Lagunitas has an NA IPA.

Samuel Adams has an NA hazy IPA, um, Brooklyn Breweries coming out the second, a NA beer. And so people are betting big on it. I don't know if our drinking habits are going to mimic something. I get akin to Germany where NA beer in Europe or NA beer is so ingrained. I don't know. I think we still expect our beer to have booze in it in America. So I think it's going to have a place.

And I think the companies that do it well are going to succeed. And I think there's gonna be a lot of people that don't do it well, that aren't going to last because right now there's just, there are too many brands coming in and the quality, the quality is, you know, some are really good. Some are not. 

Michael (15:44) 
Getting back to more societal trends. You had a great story in The New York Times, a very in-depth piece about the lack of diversity in the beer industry. And, uh, you had a great quote from Garrett Oliver or Brooklyn Brewery who said in his 30 years of being a brewmaster, he never had a black applicant for a job.

You know, it's a rather, rather shocking, you know, anecdotes and in response, he started a scholarship to encourage black brewers and distillers, which is fantastic and there are other programs by other breweries and other activists across the country doing this, which, you know, we think is fantastic. But what do you think it's going to take to make craft beer more appealing to people of color, both as consumers and as producers. 

Joshua (16:32) 
I think right now we're seeing the very beginning of efforts that will bear fruit in about five years' time. You know, right now, this is nothing that's going to change overnight right now. We're not all of a sudden going to have a nation of diversity of drinkers. It took 40 years of craft beer building to get to this point right now where it has what like, less than 20% market, you know, less than 10. I don't have the numbers in front of me. And the definitions of craft beer are always changing, but I mean, it took this long to get to where we're at right now.

And it's going to take a while, I think, to really get to a place where it's a fully diverse industry, it's going to take a lot of people that are going to have to take chances on people, people that you have to take chances on applicants. It's like the thing where, how do you get a job? You need experience. How do you get experience to get a job? So what we're seeing right now is the very beginning.

Pathways of education being pushed forward right now. I'm seeing educational initiatives across the country, showing that it is possible. That the beer industry is not…I think people think of the beer industry as being I'm a brewer. I make beer. That's it. You know, that's the job, but the job could be the person that cans the beer. It can be the person that designs the labels. It could be the person that sells the beer, or be the person working in the lab. No matter, any job is possible within beer.

And we have to show people that. So I think education is a big first step that we're seeing happening right now. And then once you're educated, educational leader, job opportunities, I mean, giving people the tools to understand what it is, what the beer industry has to offer that. I always tell people the liquid’s almost the most boring part of beer itself, because you know, the liquids, the end of the story, how does this story get told? And so the story gets told from farmers, from brewers, the person in the taproom work, and the person that designed the tapper. And any job you can dream of as possible and beer, essentially. 

Hanna (18:32) 
That's very true. So, um, what is your creative process for coming up with this type of amazing story ideas?

Joshua (18:39) 
Um, I pay attention very closely to the world around me. And I see how these like, shifts are happening and that's what I do. And then I start thinking about what these stories or stories are all about. I mean, for example, I said a hard tea story that came out a month ago, like 20 years Twisted Tea owned the boozy market, but over the last year or two, I started seeing more people coming out and I was like, huh. and I started seeing what the tea market at large you think about the Arizona vacation of tea where everybody drank a 24 ounce can of sugar tea, water that somehow stayed a dollar for two decades.

Like that's just crazy. Um, but then you started seeing more, you started seeing much more sort of like artisanal sugar-free brands like people with like, more intention of sourcing. And so it was like, okay, you see these threads. So you start piecing these things together that it's a shift toward better for you in a healthy beverage of what's this mean for, in a world, like overwhelmed with hard seltzer. And then you start realizing when people are making hard seltzer ice tea, and you're like, okay, tea’s one of the most consumed beverages in the world.

And so then he started piecing it all together. So it's really about thinking critically about why these things are happening right now and paying close attention to the shifts in the marketplace and who are the people putting things forward? My curiosity led me to these story ideas and then another good example would be, I did a story for VinePair about…there's a thing called the Salted Nut Roll and the Salted Nut Roll is this depression era candy bar, like maybe a year and a half ago.

I saw somebody on Instagram is like, “Salted Nut Roll, that's part of being a brewer,” taking out like a big sack of grain. And I was like, huh. What's that all about. I started looking into it. And basically BSG is a brewer supply group in Minnesota and is right near this candy company and started putting candy bars inside these pallets of grain.

And as the brewing industry took off last five, 10 years, more and more people have the chance to experience this. So it was a quick observation about what's this weird thing you're getting that makes your day happier. And then to basically like, getting back into it and realizing that, okay, here's this sort of like weird thing inside the industry and now brewers are making Salted Nut Roll homage beers because of this thing that happens. And so it's about paying close attention and realizing that this story is observations that lead to sort of thinking about why. And then you think beyond why it's like, who's this story for? Probably three people turned that idea down until I found a fourth place and took it. 

Hanna (21:20) 
Wow. You don’t give up.

Michael (21:21) 
Takes perseverance. 

Joshua (21:22) 
Yeah. I mean, the worst people could do is say, no. I will hold on to all of my ideas. Sometimes you update them and you know, there's a rare idea I have that never finds a home. Eventually somebody somewhere someplace, will want that idea, I just have to find the right home for it. 

Hanna (21:40)
I mean, any ideas what will be the next big trend in the beverage world? 

Joshua (21:44) 
I think in 2021 it’s going to be outdoor drinking. How can you create outdoor drinking experiences in a way to make us all feel comfortable? This is not, and this is not going to be a blip. This is going to be, I think, a permanent correction to our consumption patterns. Five years from now, people are still going to feel uncomfortable sitting inside cheek to jowl. I mean, you know, PTSD takes a long time to get away. I think you're gonna find ways for people to feel comfortable outside for a long time going forward.

And it's going to change, is a corner bar in a big city next to a fire hydrant, really the best visibility next to the subway stop, really also when you can't put any tables outside? Or it's going to be the other place somewhere else where you can build all these concepts and have outdoor stuff. The outdoors are going to be a huge part of the way that we go forward and be it. And this is for everybody, breweries, cocktail bars, everything all together that you need to find a way to make the outdoor part of your plan.

And that may mean, like shaping your drinks menu for drinks and more tailored to the outdoors. Maybe more warm cocktails and warm stouts. Maybe for beer gardens, it's more 3% or 2% beer so you can drink lots of things too. And I think it's a great opportunity for recalibrating how alcohol inserts itself into our daily lives, is opportunities there right now. And it'll be interesting to see what happens. I think the shift toward beer gardens is going to be huge in 2021, and they're almost gonna be turning back the clock a hundred years to how things used to be, and then making you know, and hopefully finally getting rid of the hangover to the demonization of alcohol and parenting.

We saw that stigma slowly, lessening, but there's still a lot of people that feel that alcohol and kids should never mix. And I am not suggesting driving your kids to the bar and having double shots, but spending a couple hours in a beer garden outside and having beer which is classically the beverage of temperance is not, you know, it's not the end of the world. Like we saw at the end of world looks like, and that's not it.

Michael (23:51) 
Agreed. You know this one makes me think of a piece recently wrote for Imbibe about virtual events, like festivals, and online tastings, and they're really bringing people together in this virtual space. So what, what's your take on it? Do you see them sticking around even after quarantine is over? 

Joshua (24:11)
I think small scale events will stick over in quarantine. I think stuff, where you can have 12 to 24 people, maybe small scale stuff, and you can make it feel like a much more unique experience, and one-on-one, will stick around. I think these large-scale, thousand person events, like you know, getting people online, I don't think that's going to stick around.

It needs to be much more special, that we already feel, you log online to maybe talk to your friends, do this and that too. You don't log online to talk to a thousand strangers usually. I think we're going to see, hopefully that people will think more about like how do you create a small curated event on there, too?

I mean even anecdotally recently, I've heard people that are creating events and packages of beer, and people are starting to care a little bit less about some of the events and more just about the acquisition of the liquid. So how do you, I think it's cause it's, when you're trying to cater to so many people, you're just not going to hit them all, but you've got to find who is your built-in. Target audience. 

Michael (25:12) 
Yep. Know your audience. So that brings me actually to my next question. If our listeners, you know, be they brewers or beverage directors want to pitch stories to you, what's the best way to reach you? 

Joshua (25:26)
If you go to my website I have a contact me form, and then people are always like, what's your email? What's your email address? This is my email address. This is on there. So, you know, that's it. I read all my emails. As I always tell people, I read all my emails. If a story is not an immediate fit, I mean, I try to respond, but if you don't hear back from me in a week, you can just usually expect that it's not a bit. I do hold onto my ideas and sometimes a year or two later, something strikes a chord on there.

And so I think, if there's any advice for people pitching is, you know, hold your horses. I mean, just because you have an idea, doesn't mean it's an immediate fit for something I'm doing this moment, but it could be for something I'm doing a year from now. Like I just wrote somebody back, they pitched me 10 months ago and I just held on the email today. I was like, so your client, well, this is a story I've got that's going to fit into your thing right now.

Let's just say that, you know, there's all good ideas out there, but not all of them are a fit the second that you hit send on an email. And I think that's what sometimes people don't always get across that just because you have an idea doesn’t mean that it's kind of home today, next week or the next month. And so, yeah, I try to be very nice about it. 

Hanna (26:45) 
So, let's talk about books. So you have written five books about beer. Most recently Drink Better Beer. I mean, love the title and we enjoyed featuring in our HLC Book Media and Ask The Author series. So thank you. So do you have any scoop on any new books that you're writing?

Joshua (27:10)
Yeah, I'm going to be, uh, no new book. I'm going to be revising The Complete Beer Course. I think that was supposed to be due in November, but the world fell apart so I'm going to be submitting a revision in spring. It's terrible to say, but there are places that are going to shut down and everything in the book that was about events and about restaurants I've gotta cut out and put the focus even larger on people. But I think that's where the industry's going to.

It's less about acquire this beer, go to this event, have this experience, you know, all of a sudden you're a coffee drinker. So I'm trying to re-envision how I'm going to update the books. That will hopefully be out in Spring 22, after that, I don't know. I'll be honest, sometimes for me it’s diminishing returns on investments for book writing.

And so after a while, I mean I've done, I've done five books in nine years and gone on countless tours and stuff. And I mean, I think I need to take a break and see what's next. Is it the best use of your time to spend two months on the road to promote this book and do this and that too? And so I need to think about what's next. Yeah it’s a lot. 

Michael (28:22) 
It is a lot. Very impressive. 

Hanna (28:23) 
I mean, Michael wrote one book and it's coming out next June and I’m very happy about it. But during what four months of time that he spent writing, I feel like I lost my husband. He was just writing and writing and writing. 

Michael (28:38) 
I mean writing a book is a very jealous mistress. 

Joshua (28:41) 
Yeah it's a lot of time. 

Hanna (28:43) 
It is. It is. 

Michael (28:44) 
All right and now for the listener questions, segments of our podcast. We have a question from Chris Herron, CEO of Creature Comforts Brewing Company in Athens, Georgia. Chris would like to know if there's a place for craft beer to succeed in the hard seltzer category, dominated by the big players. And if so, where do you see the opportunities? 

Joshua (29:06) 
Um, I think it's going to be hard for craft seltzers to compete on economies of scale. You don't have like the Mike's Hard Lemonade Company blackbox to strip all your flavors out there too. You don't have the true, you're not truly of the world at that economy of scale. Where you can compete is locally. You can set your sights on your local market and also when taprooms open up again. I think people going forward are not going to brewery hop as much as they used to.

So have as many beverages you can produce in house as possible. You see people making kombucha, wine, you know, unhopped seltzer, just like regular everything and boozy seltzer. I think it will succeed in your local marketplace and in your taproom. And I think the way you can differentiate what you're seeing is via real fruit and new flavors. Like everybody's like how many black cherries do you need? It's like, that became the flavor, but there's so much possibility out there.

So I'm looking at people that are making a hard seltzers with fruit purees and other combinations using natural ingredients. You'll never be able to get the price down as cheap as you would for artificial and natural flavors but you can, but there's always going to be an audience, especially on premise. So, that's where I would go. Yeah. Lean on fruit. Make it visually distinct, you know, allow the fruit to shine through from a color perspective and yeah. Hopefully you'll be able to convert people. That's where I'm seeing success right now. 

Hanna (30:35) 
Great insights. So we call our podcast Hospitality Forward since we are very optimistic about the future of our industry. Yes, we are suffering right now, but we know our industry will come back. So in your opinion, what innovations have you seen that are moving our industry forward? 

Joshua (30:55)
I guess it's companies that are allowing customers to make sales, whatever way is most comfortable to them. Do you want to go pick or do you want to go drink a drink on premise? Great. Do you want to take that drink to go? Great. Do you want to get that drink delivered to your door via the delivery service? Awesome. Or they get mailed to you?

Fantastic. People are taking away the idea that having a drink on premise is the only precious way it can be consumed. It's really about getting people drinks, whatever way, shape and form you can. So I think that's what it means. I think it's, you know, running a bar or running a brewery, it's about putting drinks before people, you know, in a very physical sense. Now you're putting people before drinks, you know? And so you're putting the people first and thinking about their needs.

You can't just depend on the count on people coming to your door anymore. So how can you make it as easy as possible to get the liquid in your hands. And it's also about making people feel as safe as possible. There is cleaning the tables, doing everything it's even if some of the, you know, the hygiene practices go a long way to comfort levels too. So I think there's going to be a renewed focus on hospitality coming out of all this. 

Hanna (32:09) 
Yeah, definitely. You know, flexibility and safety and convenience, I think that summarizes the current situation. So before we go, do you have any advice for our listeners on how to grab your attention? 

Joshua (32:24) 
I mean, don't boilerplate, you know, dear TK, you know, you get those emails all the time when people forget to insert your name in there too, or it's so obviously the font change, the different color, and you're like, you just copy and paste this. And that's a fishing expedition. I don't write to 10 magazines, newspapers, websites for the same form letter and expect them all to respond to that too.

So there are people at the other end of this altogether. And so just think about the person behind it and do your, you know, do your research as well on the pitches. I do keep my website pretty updated I'd say, with stories as much as I can. And so it's a pretty good snapshot of like, the things I'm covering, the subject matter I do.

And it's something that's, I've not covered a Bahamas hotel ever in my life. So when I get pitches, stuff like that, it's like, you're not paying this. I try to know my clients. My clients are the, you know, publications. So then try to get to know who you're pitching as well. You know? And I think samples are great and all, but sometimes samples are obviously not something that's going to be a fit for my story. I'm very polite about turning it down. It's like, just because the object exists in the world, doesn't mean that I can write about it.

And I think that’s what is kind of hard to get across sometimes, too. Cause it does feel for you personally, it feels like the most important thing, but it may not fit to you, but maybe another writer works for them. And so because no two people are alike.

Hanna (34:00)
Thanks for the great tips and this has been so great. And we thank you for joining us today and hope to see you soon and share a beer or two. 

Joshua (34:09) 
All right. Sounds great. Thanks so much, everybody have a great rest of your day. 

Hanna (34:12) 
All right, thank you. That was quite a chat. Now that you know what Joshua likes to cover please feel free to pitch him your timely and newsworthy story ideas.