Episode #20 John McCarthy, Men's Health, Forbes, Gear Patrol, John Barleycorn Awards

Michael (01:20) 
Hi John. Welcome to the show. 

Hanna (01:22)
So great to see you, John, how are you? 

John (01:24) 
Great to see you guys. Thank you so much for having me. 

Hanna (01:28) 
Well, first of all, let's set the record straight. So there are two writers named John McCarthy out there, and it's been confusing a lot of publicists like me. 

John (01:42)
That is true. We take a lot of pride in confusing couples.

Hanna (01:43)
Yes I’ve noticed that. 

John (01:46)
We’re in cahoots. 

Hanna (01:46)
So tell us, uh, which John you are.

John (01:51)
Which John I am. I like to think of me as the first John, because I think I was published first. No, uh, John McCarthy, the other John McCarthy is an amazing world-class mixologist who is married to Carrie Jones. Uh, who's a journalist. And the two of them, uh, work together to put together content for Food & Wine. They wrote a book together and, um, John and I are friends, we've known each other for years. My path, I spent 10 years at Men's Health magazine. Um, and it was at that magazine where I first started to talk about things like wine and spirits. Um, and since I left the magazine, I continued to do so, uh, wrote a couple of books on the subject and, uh, started writing for several publications, um, travel, spirits, lifestyle stuff.

Michael (02:48) 
So how, how did you come to this incredible beat covering, uh, spirits and all good things? 

John (02:52)
Um, I started, you know, first of all, I was the Managing Editor of Men's Health. And I had come out of really the graphics world. I spent a good deal of my career in graphics, in design and production. Predominantly I was production director for many, many years, um, in and around publications and there within, I would always produce content, but let's say around 2010 or so, is when I really got started doing spirits. I was doing some food blogging for Men's Health and I don't eat red meat.

And I realized very quickly that my career would be very short as a food writer, just because of my own dietary restrictions. But I drink everything and I noticed that there was an amazing cocktail revolution happening in 2010. It was hard not to notice. I could also not help notice that bourbon whiskey was completely taking off and everybody was talking about it except Men's Health.

You may say that makes a lot of sense to Health magazine, but you know what, we're also a lifestyle magazine and we know our guys drink and if they're going to drink, we want them to drink well. So basically, um, since we were talking a lot about wine, uh, a lot about beer, a little bit about one and we weren't covering spirits and cocktails. I saw an enormous opportunity there to start to talk to our readers about these things and to give them the opportunity to enjoy these drinks, as well.

Hanna (04:35)
So in the wine world, there is a lot of talk about terroir. So in your opinion, how important is terroir in the spirits world? And if there's any specific spirits category that embodies the terroir even more than others?

John (04:53)
You know, there's a great debate about the terroir in wine, as well as whiskey. The answer lies really in who you ask, um, everybody has a different kind of opinion about it. Here's what I will say. I was in Japan a couple of years ago, um, with Suntory and we had a great conversation about not so much terroir where the where the grains for whiskey, for example, would be grown.

But the effect of water source on the taste of whiskey and they have three different main distilleries, Yamazaki being one, uh, Hakushu, being another and they did a really cool test where they swapped water and made the whiskey. And they were saying that, you know, it was unbelievable how much of a difference it made to make the water made to make Yamazaki tastes like, like Hakushu and vice versa, just because of the water, which is something that nobody ever really talks about.

Um, and in terms of terroir coming out of the terroir coming out of the earth, you know, I'll be honest with you I think there might be something to it, but you're also distilling that grain just down based to the basic alcohol and the surrounding conjures. Right? I'm a journalist. I'm not, you know, I'm not a whiskey maker and many whiskey makers swear by terroir and will show you terroir in their work and believe in it. And other whiskey makers will tell you, hey, look, we're bringing it down to the alcohol molecule and its surrounding molecules. And that would be, that would be very, very much diminished. So they don't believe in that. I don't have a solid opinion. I really don't. 

Michael (07:00) 
Let's circle back to some of the work that you've done. You worked at Men's Health for quite a while that you mentioned, you've contributed to Gear Patrol and business publications like Forbes. So as a freelance writer, what's been most challenging for you during the pandemic? How has it affected the way you work and cover of the speeds? 

John (07:22) 
You know, I'll tell you the truth right before we shut down, I signed a book deal to write a book and the pandemic was the, the perfect, the perfect way to spend your time if you have a book to write, because I feel like I didn't miss anything because I would have locked down anyway for months, for months and months and months.

But where it did affect the actual work was this, the book was coming out in the spring is called Whiskey Rebels. I was really trying to get into, um, what makes craft whiskey craft whiskey and to get to the bottom of the stories of these guys who built these amazing distilleries basically out of nothing. And the plan was to visit all of them.

I mean, I had 11 trips planned to go visit and to smell the distillery and to see it and to sit down with the people who make the whiskey and to connect with them and to get their stories. And unfortunately, I had very scant opportunity to do that because for obvious reasons, we got locked down and for me I felt like it made, um, the whole project, a lot more difficult because now I'm approaching people who don't necessarily know me, uh, on a phone, on the phone or on Zoom.

And they don't know who I am and I don't know who they are. And I wasn't, you know, I wasn't in their distillery, like getting the vibe and getting an understanding of what they've really created. So it made it harder for me to get in there and to get that from people to find the essence of what their specific company is all about. So it was challenging in that way, but I got there, we did it on the phone a lot more interviews than it should have, but we got there.

Hanna (09:06) 
You got the job done, whatever it takes, you know?

John (09:08)
Yeah. 

Michael (09:08)
We've, we've, pre-ordered our copy. We're looking forward to it. 

John (09:12)
Thank you so much. 

Hanna (09:13) 
So you expanded your passion for spirits by co-founding the John Barleycorn Awards. And you also serve as Director of Judging. So what was the inspiration for the awards and how it started? Tell us all about it. 

John (09:29)
I will do this as quickly as I can. Um, because it's a little bit of a long story, but the John Barleycorn Awards was really started by my partner and the predominant owner of the awards. His name is Ed Dalheim, and Ed owns a company that does third party evaluations in several different areas. Most notably marketing. He owns the MarCom Awards, the Hermes Awards, awards that many people in the business have heard of. And while that's his bread and butter on the side, as a whiskey geek, he's a bourbon geek big time.

And because of that, he thought it would be a really great idea to apply what he does in the marketing world, for example, to the spirits world. So he wants to start a whiskey competition and through a mutual friend, he was introduced to me. Ed is a wonderful person and we really hit it off. And eventually I became a partner in the company and kind of stayed on as director of judging. The Barleycorn Awards, it's an award program that is coming to you from the very spirits journalists who write about the spirits.

That, that is who we are. That's who the John Barleycorn Society is. And for, um, people who, for example, take a very famous berberine person like Fred Minnick, for example, um, if you really kind of want to know what Fred Minnick thinks about your whiskey, this would be a great entry point for that. And it's really, you know, I'm a, I'm a journalist and it was up to me to, to come up with kind of the hook for the competition. And you know, me and Ed were having a great conversation about it.

And I was like, well, what do you think you want to do? And he's like, well, that's what I hired you for. You're the expert. And I thought to myself, I'm not really an expert, like in whiskey, the way somebody who makes whiskey would be, you know, they're, you know, as much as I know about, about spirits, there are people who've got more. Of course. I'm you know, I'm an industry expert. I'm not even really in the industry, I'm in the periphery of the industry, but I am in the journalism industry, very much.

So it was my idea to really go to what I know and to source people who I knew had a great palette and were very influential in the spirits world. And I brought that amazing, talented crew together to serve as our judging panel for this competition. And we're in our second year now. And it's been really great. 

Hanna (11:54)
Congratulations.

John (11:55) 
Thank you. 

Michael (11:56) 
We definitely know a lot of the folks on the judging panel. I mean, they're journalists that we've long admired and you know, it really does set the competition apart from anything else out there and brings amazing credibility to the whole project. 

Hanna (12:10) 
Agreed. So just to show off a little bit, our agency won Spirits Marketer of the Year last year. So we are so honored and we have a trophy in our office and beautifully displayed and every day we look at it and as an inspiration so thank you. 

John (12:27) 
Well, congratulations it was well earned. You guys do unbelievable work. 

Michael (12:30) 
Thank you. So John, now back to storytelling, so we'd like your opinion on, what makes a good story. For example, how does a good story for Men's Health differ from a good story from let's say, Gear Patrol?

Hanna (12:41) 
Or Forbes.com. 

Michael (12:43) 
Or Forbes.com. Yeah. How, how are they different when you pitch them? How do you conceive of them differently? Because they're different outlets. 

John (12:51) 
Great question. Each publication is going to have a point of view, if you will, an editorial point of view, and you need to cater to that point of view or the editor, you know, really can't work with it. So it's very important to know who you're writing for, what their editorial point of view is when it comes to a publication, like Men's Health it's all about service.

How do I work out better? How can I improve my life? It's about giving the readers something that they can take with them and they can hold dear to themselves to, uh, to do something better. Now, you know, you're looking at something like Forbes and that is a, it's a very different tact. Okay? It's, what are the nuts and bolts here? It's very business oriented publication, while they do do a lot of lifestyle, um, I get more into the business end when I write for Forbes. So doing a Forbes story, you know, uh, lots of nuts and bolts and numbers and things like that is kind of the direction I'm going to take that.

Hanna (13:55) 
Okay, so then let's get more specific. So what types of pitches get your attention or sometimes you say nope, not for me.

John (14:03)
Um, it sounds really obvious, but the pitches that are going to get the attention or the pitches that I look at and right away feel like, like, Hey, this is a story, um, that I can use for X publication or Y publication. And I think it is very important for publicity people, communication specialists, to know who the journalist is writing for and to pitch them in a way that will help them get the attention of their editors.

You know, if you send me 10 cocktail recipes, that's great, but I can't go to Forbes with that. Who am I going to go? Who am I going to with that? I can't go to Men's Health and being like, oh, hey, you know, this cognac has a really cool variation of a sidecar. Let's run it. It doesn't help me.

So unfortunately I would probably move on, but if you give me something that's new and recent and happening and business focused, then, you know, I'm like, hey, do I have, do I have something here that I can bust out for Forbes? That would be great for me. Great for them. Great for the reader. And those are the kinds of things that I'm looking for. 

Hanna (15:16)
So then, um, looking ahead. I know it’s hard to predict anything because things are changing by the hour, but what types of stories will you be working on?

John (15:24) 
I have a book coming out in June that I just finished. So I plan to be promoting that, pretty heavily. I'm hoping to, you know, continue writing for the outlets that I do, but I'd also love to pick up some more work and to do some other things. You know, I was really getting into travel writing before, um, before the shutdown also. And obviously that just like flat out went away.

That was a huge thing. That was a huge thing that I was really gunning for at the time. How long that's going to be on ice? It’s very hard to tell. I doubt it's going to happen in 2021. So I'm kind of recalibrating myself and what I'm going to do. Um, but I think the plan is keep writing, to keep working my own brands and, uh, to pick up some new writing partners would be really cool coming into 2021. 

Hanna (16:25)
So, John, when you feel comfortable traveling internationally, what country would you first visit for a distillery tour and why? 

John (16:36) 
That's a great question. I mean, if I have look, I don't always get to pick and choose where I go, but if I had to pick and choose a place in the world that is distillery heavy, I think I would have to go to Islay, Scotland. Obviously it's predominantly where peated scotch comes from. It is one of the most gorgeous places on the planet and I would never give up an opportunity to go there. The distilleries are awesome, too. I mean, it's just such a beautiful place in the world. 

Hanna (17:13)
Agree, agree, Michael and I traveled to Islay a couple of years ago. It was an absolutely a dreamy place. I mean, it was so beautiful. 

Michael (17:22) 
We were staying in Edinburgh and we did an overnight trip. It was quite a trek.

John (17:29)
Yeah. Doesn't it feel like you went back, you know, 150 years in time, there were so few people there and it's so real and there are Golden Eagles flying around and there's deer everywhere and it's just old and beautiful. And the sea, the sea, you know, the whole, the whole seaside is just amazing.

Michael (17:46) 
It’s one of the most unique places we've ever been. 

Hanna (17:50) 
Yeah, and actually like, you know, the internet. The connection wasn't so great. But then he was like, who cares? Look at the ships. The smell of the ocean, it’s a beautiful place. Forget about the phone. 

John (18:00) 
Yeah and the whiskey. Don’t forget the whiskey. It's certainly a great place to unplug. 

Hanna (18:06)
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So let's go back to your first book, which is one of my favorites. So The Modern Gentlemen: The Guide to the Best Food, Drinks and Accessories. So as you know, John, a lot of people are spending more time at home and more people are reading and they're looking for a good read. So can you tell us why our listeners go and grab your book and read it? 

John (18:33) 
Yes, absolutely. So I approached this book in a very, very specific way. Um, a very Men's Health way, if you will, because it's all about service. First of all the name of the book is The Modern Gentlemen, it was really originally conceived to be written for, you know, young guys, let's say coming out of college. Okay? And the reality is anybody can read this book. A

nd I wish I had this book when I was that age, because like I say, in the book, you know, I drank wine out of a box until I was 33 years old because I literally didn't know. I literally didn't know any better. But I was drinking wine and that brings me to the point of this book. There are 15 chapters in this book, uh, short chapters and each one introduces you to a category of food or drink that we enjoy every day. And it's kind of an entry point into the category. So you learn about, for example, whiskey, wine, beer, hot sauce, cigars.

And I am of the opinion that if you understand not only what you're eating, but where it comes from and, um, the craftsmen and the craft that is involved in bringing it to your plate. You will enjoy that plate of food or that cocktail or that whiskey or that glass of wine even more. Hopefully you'll take advice in the book. Hopefully you'll have a lot of new stuff to talk about, um, about with, with friends.

Great coffee, great conversation. Um, but really it's a learning tool. Eight cocktails that every guy should know, like what if, you know, if you know how to make a Manhattan, if you don't know how to make a Martini, if you know how to make an Old Fashioned, if you know how to make a Negroni, if you know how to make the basic drinks, you're going to be a hit at the party for the rest of your life. You know? 

Michael (20:35) 
It's really like a cheat sheet for life. 

John (20:37) 
Yeah. For food and drink and enjoying, enjoying…

Michael (20:42)
...the finer things. 

John (20:43) 
Yeah. Or a deeper understanding of things we already enjoy. 

Hanna (20:45) 
And I think it's a great gifting item. 

Michael (20:49)
Yeah good stocking stuffer. 

John (20:50) 
Good stocking stuffer, yeah. 

Michael (20:52) 
You know, we call our podcast Hospitality Forward because we're optimistic about our industry. We know it's resilient. We know it's going to bounce back. So we'd like to know, you know, in your opinion, what kinds of innovations are you seeing in the spirits industry that are going to take hospitality forward? 

John (21:08) 
You know, I wish I had an easy answer to that. In the mixology world, um, it's such a personal thing, you know, what bartenders do, for example, is they bring kind of like a ringleader, you know what I mean? That's what they do. They're combining their mixology skills with their personality, with their ability to manage a crowd and create a vibe to help create a vibe in the room.

Um, and unfortunately I just, I just don't see any of recreating that without us getting out of the predicament that world, you know, everybody in the world is in right now. However, um, just the amazing, um, just the amazing creativity and innovation that everybody has wrapped their brains to do in order to survive and to keep and to keep the love alive and to keep the light lit if you will, has been amazing from, you know? Awesome cocktails to-go, to podcasts and bringing people ideas to mix at home. I mean, innovations in restaurants is, you know, it's like, what are we doing? We're doing plexiglass. We're doing the best we can.

We're keeping social distancing live. We're keeping people as safe as we possibly can. And in most cases, if those protocols are followed things are going to be fine. I find that in a lot of cases, those protocols are not followed and that's where we've had a lot of issues, you know? I mean, you see people building these massive things outside in the city, in New York City where I live, where people can sit down and eat and they're investing in heat lamps, and we're supposed to get a foot of snow and everybody has to physically pack those things up and get them off the sidewalk so they can be clear What a disaster. 

Michael (23:06) 
Couldn’t come at a worse time.

Hanna (23:07)
I mean, so challenging. 

Michael (23:11) 
All right. And now for the listener question segments of our podcast, we have a question from Ryan Christiansen, Head Distiller of Barr Hill Gin. He asks, what do you think it'll take for American gin to take a leadership position in the global spirits landscape?

John (23:28) 
American gin and the global spirits landscape? Well, I'll tell you what, the recent gin movement revolves a lot around what I call new school gin. You have a London Dry, right? So you have a London Dry gin, very juniper forward, very crisp, very delicious, but very much anchored in the idea of this is a London dry, it's not an American gin, you know, it's from the United Kingdom or at least that's the perception.

The London Dry does not have to be from the UK, but that's the perception. So here's where innovation comes in, right? Because you look at American and other things. Other gin companies and what have they done to make gin popular again, and to make gin interesting again, it's like, well, they put innovations on it.

Why does it have to be so juniper forward, throwing out the rule book and creating your own flavors, you know, Turkish rose and cucumber and raspberry forward and bringing in new botanicals to create new, exciting things. Giving mixologists, giving bartenders tools to create new flavors, even if it's just like subtle nuances. It's exciting for them. It's exciting for the drinker. And I see it definitely with craft whiskey, how much innovation has had an impact. And I think that through that craft movement, certainly, gin comes with that. And I think that it takes time for people to start to, you know, develop an idea of what perhaps an American gin might look and taste like, um, the way you might associate a London Dry gin or an Old Tom gin or something like that, which would be sweeter.

Of course. So when I say Old Tom it's, I know I expect it to be sweet. When I say London Dry, I expect it to be juniper forward and dry and crisp. When I say American, what do I expect to be in that class? And I think that once we get to that place, then American gin as a category, will be a thing. And in the meantime, we just have to be happy with the idea that gin has really blossomed. And because people are thinking out of the box, we now have so many amazing gin that are not just based on the idea of London Dry. 

Hanna (26:49) 
So thanks, John. It's been great. We hope to see you soon and share a drink or two sometime very soon. 

John (26:55) 
I hope so, guys. Thanks again. 

Hanna (26:57) 
Thanks John. Talk to you soon.

Michael (26:58)
Bye bye.