Episode #23 Sandrae Lawrence and Gary Sharpen, The Cocktail Lovers Magazine

Hanna (01:48) 
Hi guys. Hi, Sandrae and Gary, how are you? 

Sandrae (01:51) 
Hi, Michael and Hannah. How are you doing? 

Hanna (01:53)
Great. Welcome to the show. 

Michael (01:56) 
Yeah. So great to see you. 

Gary (01:57) 
Thank you. 

Michael (01:58) 
This is so exciting. You guys are our first overseas guests. 

Sandrae (02:01) 
We are so privileged. We've listened to a lot of your podcasts and they sound absolutely brilliant. Keep up the good work and we feel so honored to be part of your show. 

Gary (02:10)
Thank you so much. Thank you. 

Michael (02:12) 
Thank you. The feeling is very mutual and, uh, you know, how have you guys been, and what's it like for the hospitality industry in the UK right now? 

Sandrae (02:22) 
It's um, we've been fine. Luckily we've been healthy and we've kept well, but it's sad because we can't get out and see and support our friends. Um, that's, that's the tough bit because we know that a lot of people are suffering right now. So that's the hard thing. 

Gary (02:42) 
Yeah, I guess it's the same in London as it is in New York and a lot of big cities where you thrive on that energy and that buzz and to walk around those streets. And they're quiet when the bars are closed, it's hard. 

Hanna (02:57)
It is same here in New York city. I mean, and we used to get 60 million people visiting New York City, but now it's a completely different situation so very sad. 

Michael (03:09)
But we, we, you know, we have been seeing a lot of innovations as a result of this crisis. What are you guys seeing on your side of the pond? 

Sandrae (03:16)
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the good thing is with this industry, everyone is so creative and they've been so quick to pivot. Because, you know, it's a matter of having to survive. So people have been thinking very quickly. There's been a lot, I think also in the States, lots of takeaway and delivery services, which have been amazing because I think that before people used to think that, um, as not the greatest of drinks, but actually the quality of them has been absolutely amazing. We've had, we've had bottled cocktails from everywhere from The Connaught to Swift, to all sorts of bars and everyone's doing a great, great job. 

Gary (03:58) 
Yeah. Bartenders bar owners by nature they're entrepreneurs. So, you know, they're getting all of these lemons thrown at them and they make beautiful lemonade, you know, so we're just in awe of the way they're sort of making this into a positive as much as possible.

Sandrae (04:14) 
And the other thing is it's been really good from a consumer point of view to see how much that people want these drinks. So it's not just a case of the bars creating these drinks. They're actually been snapped up and over here, um, in the first month of the very first lockdown, cocktail delivery services were Googled 350% more than they have been before. So that just goes to show the thirst that people have for cocktails.

Michael (04:44) 
Indeed, especially the pandemic made people even thirstier. 

Sandrae (04:49) 
Absolutely drove us all to drink. Good drinks. 

Hanna (04:53) 
So speaking of innovation, um, you guys have done amazing work with The Cocktail Lovers, which now celebrating 10th year anniversary this year, I think. Right? 

Sandrae (05:05) 
Yes. 

Hanna (05:06)
Congratulations. That's amazing. So tell us about The Cocktail Lovers. So how did they come about from your inspiration to, you know, who your audience is? So tell us everything about your magazine. 

Gary (05:19) 
Right. How long have you guys got? We'll give you the condensed version. I mean, as you say, we've been going for about 10 years and it started very much as a labor of love and it still is. Um, and it came about because Sandrae and I, we loved going to the great bars when we first facing. Always trying to impress launch, or by taking it to great cocktail bars. Luckily it worked. I think it was a key part of our relationship was going to nice bars and dressing up and getting to know the bartenders. We always loved sitting at the bar. It was a big thing for us to sit at the bar and talk to the bartenders. And I think they kind of liked the fact that we were more than a little interested. And then, you know, this was a few years we've been doing this and then suddenly we started talking to friends and they were always asking us, where should we go? And what's hot and I'm going to be in this part of London, where should we drink?

So we just started writing a blog at the time, very much about the bars in London and that's how it started. We called ourselves The Cocktail Lovers, partly because we were lovers. We weren't married then. Um, but also we, a key part of what we want to do was to celebrate great bars. We didn't want to do negative reviews. We didn't want to, we don't like that thing in the restaurant world where people put down restaurants and give them bad reviews. We said, let's celebrate what we love about this industry. Uh, we wrote the blog that evolved from bars to writing about drinks, personalities, um, and also we, we always see it as a lifestyle. Um, so we were equally writing about what people were wearing, um, traveling, and then that evolved into the magazine and it became a very natural, we wanted the magazine to be a lifestyle magazine about cocktails that was equally important to write about food and travel. And clothes and personalities all from a cocktail perspective.

Sandrae (07:18) 
Yeah. And then after the blog, um, it transitioned, we wanted to do a little bit more and people kept asking us to do more. I was already a journalist at this time, but I was writing about fashion and food. So I was interviewing chefs, um, but it was so much lovelier, to interview bartenders because they had so much passion. They were theatrical, they're artistic.

There's all of this wonderful enthusiasm that they had for what I was doing. And I wanted to translate that to let people know, that bartending wasn't this, the job that people just did in between careers, this was a career. And because I was very much from a lifestyle background and Gary worked in advertising, he had that mindset as well. We wanted to translate our passion to other people that we knew that were starting their cocktail journey as well. So we were asking the questions that I wanted to ask and to know, and we brought the cocktail to life in The Cocktail Lovers lifestyle.

Hanna (08:32) 
Yeah. I mean, we have fans and I know there's a lot of fans around the globe loving your magazine. 

Sandrae (08:38)
Thank you.

Hanna (08:39)
So let's talk about the being a couple. So you are married and you are a working couple, just like Michael and me challenges and, and, and the rewarding part as well. So what do each of you do at the magazine?

Sandrae (08:56)
Hmm, it crosses over actually. I mean, there's, there's lots of the same things that we do, but then Gary does all of the tech, all of the finances as well. And also writing. 

Gary (09:09) 
Ultimately we're creative people. Sandrae is from a lifestyle journalism background. I was an advertising copywriter and then creative director ran my own agency and things like that. So we we’re very creative. But as you guys know, when you work in a creative industry, you're very like, Oh, I don't do technical stuff. I don't do finances. We have people to do that for us. And then suddenly when you're entrepreneurs and you're working for yourself, it's like, Oh, who fixes the photocopier. So we've taught ourselves to do a lot of stuff from scratch. A lot of the technical stuff, a lot of the dry stuff, if you like, but that’s fun as well, just learning new skills. Um, but ultimately we're, we're creative and we look, we both overlap on ideas the whole time. 

Michael (10:02) 
And you know, you really have to trust your gut in these matters. And, you know, especially with so much on, you know, topsy turvy these days. You know, it's great that you, you know, trust your instincts, but how would you say you're keeping the magazine most relevant and strong, uh, as a voice for our community, you know, which you've been doing so well? 

Sandrae (10:24)
The last two issues that we did were very much where we're addressing what's going on, but keeping positive. So it's a really fine balance to do because you can't just say, “Hey, everything's great” because everything isn't great. So you have to address that, but also you don't want to be down being, we have to, you know, there's a lot of great stuff that's going on out there.

We're talking about these wonderful takeaway delivery services. We're talking about people that are doing great things in charity. There's so many good things, but it's really, you have to champion that and you have to let people know that, you know, we, it might be enough for three months. It might be enough for six months, but we will get past that. Things are going to change obviously. But, you know, we're all creative where, where we're adults and we will rise accordingly. 

Hanna (11:19)
Absolutely. So, um, in the world of spirits, there's a lot of innovation going on. As we all know, and, you know, we love reading your articles on the spirits and spirits brand founders, and all of the good things. So, um, are there any trends that you're seeing emerge in the spirits industry? 

Sandrae (11:43) 
It's difficult at the moment because a lot of things are on hold. Um, I would say that where the innovation is coming is with the delivery and takeaways, that's happening with restaurants as well. So we're getting a lot of, um, delivery kits with the restaurant. So almost half cook the dishes, but you cook, you finish them off at home yourself. And I think that that is going to translate into drinks, as well. Um, Marian Beke at The Gibson has got a wonderful cocktail kit, but that he provides with a bottle, lots of little nibbles and all of the things that you need to create a really cool cocktail ambience at home.

Gary (12:30)
Even a cigar.

Sandrae (12:30)
You get a lovely playlist, you know, there's all sorts of things. So it's about the experiences and getting people to still have some kind of an experience at home. Um, so I think we'll see much more going in that direction, as well. 

Gary (12:48) 
And I think the other thing is not necessarily new, but we're seeing exploding and I'm sure you are, is that the no and low alcohol approach to both the cocktails and the ingredients. And I think that's been a really positive thing because as you guys will know, you go back, not that many years. And you would go to a bar and if there was a monk, or one of for whatever reason, didn't want to drink that evening thing or didn’t want to drink alcohol, they really drew the short straw, you know, like soda with some orange juice and things. And obviously a few bars over the last five years or so, the good bars started to really cater for giving a great non-alcohol cocktails. And now, obviously in the last, even more recently, we're seeing some really good non-alcoholic ingredients. Um, and it’s great to have that. 

Sandrae (13:47) 
Yeah. Also the sodas, as well. So that's another thing that's just. We’ve got tons of sodas here to try and think about that. So yes, the low and no categories really exploded in. And I think it's a good thing for people that are not drinking, but also the people that do drink and want the occasional, you know, day off or so.

Michael (14:09)
Yeah, we're, we're, we're seeing that on over here as well, especially try January, very high profile. 

Sandrae (14:16) 
Um, as I said, but it is difficult now because that may have been things that were trying to come through, but it's not the best time for launches or for people, you know, to see all the creativity because the bars are in lockdown and, um, you know, people. Well, we'll say, we'll see what happens. So I think a lot of plans are on hold.

Michael (14:39)
So despite all, you know, things being on hold, do you have any tips for our bartender, friends or bar owners for getting your attention to get featured in the magazine? And, you know, given that you're so international, if someone is from Kenya or Hong Kong, you know, what do they need to do to grab your attention? 

Sandrae (14:58)
Well, we love hearing from people. We love great stories. They can be personal, which is even better. If people get in touch with us, with their initiatives, and sometimes they don't always work, but we do love to have voices from all over the world, you know, where we're based in London, which is great. But you know, there is more to the world than London.

And I think the more voices that we all hear, the more that we can learn from. So it's always great to from people from all over the world. We used to have a feature every year, every issue where we would focus on a bartender from somewhere in the world, talking about what they do so that's something that we could bring back. You know, if we hear some great stories and people have passionate voices about what's going on in that box, what they're doing and back communities, that will be great. 

Gary (15:52)
And I think we would encourage, uh, bartenders, the bar owners to also kind of look at their own offerings before they share them with us, as through the guests eyes. Cause I think there's a thing that can happen a lot, not just in the bar world and uh, you know, in life generally where you're so close to your baby and it's like, here's my baby. Everyone's going to love my baby. And it's like, hold on, stand back a moment and let’s comb the baby's hair. So I think that thing of just being a little bit objective about your story before you share it. 

Hanna (16:24) 
So it's very hard to have an editorial calendar. Normally the magazine has yearly editorial calendar planned, but I visited with what’s going on right now it’s hard to plan anything. However, are there any, like an evergreen story that you always cover each month where our listeners can be part of?

Sandrae (16:46) 
Well, the main things that stay always, we always do, um, an international bar scene, but that's usually something that we visit. So that's from our personal points of view, but we can have people’s thoughts on, on different bars around the world. I'm not, I'm not quite sure how we'll work that in, but always room for great stories. And as Gary said, it's not just about thinking, oh, I’ve got a new menu. Yes. That can be great. But what's so special about that menu?

Why is it different? Why should we know? And why should anybody care quite frankly? You know, there's no story, but if it's good enough that we wouldn't publish, so it's just about thinking how, how it works with The Cocktail Lovers style. What I would say to most people is make sure you look at the magazine before you pitch an idea to us because you know, some people will just pitch straightforward trade stories. We don't do that when, not just about repeating press releases. We like to get a story behind it, get our voice behind it and really be passionate about it. So I would suggest that if you haven't already, even if you don't get the magazine, have a look on our website and get an idea of our tone, our style and the kind of things that we were always about. 

Hanna (18:12) 
Great insights. So how can our listeners best reach you to pitch their stories? 

Gary (18:19) 
Uh, yeah. Well, just go to our website. There's a contact form on there. That's where we get sort of 80, 90% of our cold contacts if you like. People that scope the website, there's a contact form. Just fill that in. That will come to the two of us. I mean, some people contact us via Facebook and Instagram.

Sandrae (18:41) 
And the website just in case, is thecocktaillovers.com. And that's also where we are on Instagram. Facebook is Cocktail Lovers. 

Michael (18:53) 
And now for the listener question segments of our show. We have a question from a fan of The Cocktail Lovers in South Korea. It’s Yongjin Noah Kwon, who formerly worked at Charles H at the Four Seasons in Soul. And we visited there and saw him in action. It's amazing.

Hanna (19:10) 
He’s great. 

Michael (19:11) 
And now he has his own bar in Soul called Zest Soul. 

Hanna (19:16) 
And he opened his bar during this pandemic. 

Sandrae (19:20)
Oh wow. 

Hanna (19:21) 
Bravo to him. 

Michael (19:21) 
Very brave soul. So he asks, what advice would you give to a new bar to bring its awareness to the global level? Especially with travel being so restricted these days.

Sandrae (19:31)
Well, it's got to be good old social media, I think, you know, I mean, that's the way these days, we're lucky in some ways that the pandemic has happened now, because at least we do have social media. We do have internet and we can keep connected with anybody and everybody around the world. So it's about making yourself relevant on, on Instagram or on Facebook,

Facebook live. Doing some cocktail classes from your bar, I would just say, yeah, build your audience that way and, and also send to us some details. Let us know, what are you doing? You know, we want to know how, how has it been? Now think about this. You've just opened your phone in the middle of a pandemic. How has it been for you? What are the struggles? How are you managing to survive? Those are the kinds of stories that people. Well now us, the things that we like to know, because we want to know things from a personal level so always think along those lines, as well. 

Gary (20:37) 
Again, you know, certainly from our point of view, with those kinds of stories, we keep saying, you know, we, we write for both consumer and industry, and as Sandrae said, those kinds of stories had to open a bar in the middle of a pandemic. That's a great story for everyone. That's not an industry only story. You know, our consumer readers will be fascinated by a story like that. 

Hanna (21:00)
Alright so the last question of our show. So, um, what do you see as the, as the future of the bar experience post COVID? 

Sandrae (21:11) 
It's so tricky. We were talking about this earlier on as well, because on the one hand I'm really optimistic and I'm like, Oh, everyone's going to rush back into the bars and they can't wait because we've seen this happen after the first lockdown. People, okay, they didn't rush back into the bars, but I wanted to go back out. Everyone's been indoors for so long that people are planning when they can go to the next meal or when they can put on the nice fraught and go and sit and meet with people.

There's going to be different because before, when we were in power, so he could stand up, he could hug. You could do all of this contact thing and that's gone now. You know, it's going to take a long time before you can hug or feel free to, you know, to do those sorts of things. So that does detract from the experience. But I don't think that people. I think people still want to go out. It might be some people that are a bit more hesitant. So if you're a bar with an outside space, that's great. Gary has a different take on it as well. Don’t you? 

Gary (22:16)
I think the thing that I think everyone's got to be aware of from a bar point of view is to, again, put yourself in the consumer, the guests shoes, because after we came out in the first big lockdown back in, whenever that was May, June of last year. Sandrae said, I think most people we knew well, I can't wait to get back, but we're also amongst people, we noticed a few people saying I still don't feel comfortable. I'm a bit worried about going into a crowded bar.

So I think you've got to really be mindful of your guest experiences and just make sure they're really comfortable with coming, coming back out. Cause I don't think we're going to go straight back to how it was. I mean, we'd love it. I don't think that's going to happen in any major country or any major city. I think we've got to be really mindful and say take people back on the journey and ease them back in and say, this is a safe environment. We're looking after you, everything's clean. And you know, I think we've got to be really careful and hold people's hands in a nice way. 

Sandrae (23:23) 
We're going to have to build people's confidence, essentially.

Hanna (23:25) 
And the trust.

Gary (23:26)
Yes. 

Sandrae (23:27)
Absolutely.

Hanna (23:28)
This has been so much fun and I wish we can talk to you more for another hour or so. Great to see you both and hopefully we'll see you in London, which is one of our favorite cities in the world sometime soon. Be well and be healthy. Okay? 

Michael (23:46)
Stay safe.

Hanna (23:49)
I love you guys. 

Sandrae (23:50)
Love you too.

Everyone (23:52)
Bye

Hanna (23:57)
It's always inspiring to chat with Sandrae and Gary, the hardest working couple ever. 

Michael (24:04)
Now that you know what Sandrae and Gary cover, please feel free to pitch them your story ideas that would be of interest to a global audience. Do mention that you heard them on our podcast. 

Hanna (24:15) 
We have a lot of exciting media guests in the pipeline as well so please subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Google Podcast, or your favorite podcast app. 

Michael (24:29)
Please leave a review and tell your friends and colleagues. See you next week. 

Hanna (24:33) 
Until then join us as we move hospitality forward together.