Episode #28 - Howie Kahn, WSJ Magazine, "Take Away Only" Podcast, GQ, Wired, Travel + Leisure

Michael (01:45): Hi, Howie. Welcome to the show. 

Hanna (01:47): So great to see you. 

Howie (01:49): Thank you guys for having me. I appreciate it. It's great to see you both.

Michael (01:54): Howie. You've been freelance writing for many years. Can you tell our listeners what specific topics you normally cover? 

Howie (02:00): Oh man. It's been a fun, almost 20 years, doing this. I write about food. I write about restaurants. I write about culture. I write about travel. I write about art. I write about creativity and I write about jobs. Essentially I write about how people's jobs inform who they are and how people, um, inform what their field is and how it evolves. 

Hanna (02:25): So what is your approach to finding a good story? And also, where do you go for inspiration? 

Howie (02:31): Oh, man. I feel like everything's changed. You know, I, I think the answer now to what a good story is, is does it matter? Does it move the needle in some way? Can it help somebody? Does the kinda narrative help change somebody's life? Can communicating help keep a business open? Can it help people stay employed? Can it change policy? Can it get food to people who aren't able to eat?

I think the stakes have changed and gone up in terms of, of what makes a good story in terms of where do I go for inspiration? I mean, we're not allowed to go anywhere anymore. So, um, you know, you pick up the phone and read as much as possible and communicate. There's also something precious about memory and maybe things you missed in a story from 10 years ago or 20 years ago, or five minutes ago, is something worth revisiting. Is somebody going through something new? Right? I mean, the pandemic kind of changed everybody's circumstances or at least made everybody's circumstances more visible.

In a way it's sort of easier to see what stories matter now than it was before. There's less, um, there's less noise. I think there's more clarity. 

Hanna (03:51): Very true.

Michael (03:52): Agreed. Can you explain to our listeners how you pitch a story to your editors? Uh, is there something that our listeners can learn from your process given that there's similarities involved in people like us pitching writers, like you? 

Howie (04:06): I think it's about having relationships. I don't really think it's about thinking about anything in terms of just one, one pitch. I think one pitch is one breath, right? I mean, you need to breathe a lot in order to live. I think it's, do you have a good idea? Do you want to convey it? Do you want to have a conversation about it? What can you learn from the conversation you're having?

Um, can you pitch somebody you know, can you pitch somebody you trust? Can you pitch somebody you have a relationship with where their feedback matters to you, where the pitch can be a collaboration? Can you get to a place where your pitches aren't just unilateral, um, but collaborative? I think is maybe how I look at it. Otherwise, um, it's a little too uphill and a little daunting and exhausting and it's like doing something, you know, with, um, a bag pulled over your head or something where you can't see where you're going. I think ensuring that you have as much visibility around your process and ask them for as much transparency from who you're communicating with, uh, as possible is really important. 

Hanna (05:17): Speaking of pitching, would you be able to share some of your pitching do's and don'ts for our listeners, especially those who don't have PR agencies onboard? 

Michael (05:29): You know, who are chefs, bartenders, sommeliers who want to get their own stories out and would want to pitch them to you. 

Howie (05:36): It's really important to understand your audience. If you're pitching an individual it's great to actually know what kind of work they do and what their body of work is. You know, I always find it especially strange when I get a pitch that has nothing to do with anything I've ever done. Um, because that's pretty clear that it's probably something I'll never do. Certain magazines talk in their own voices.

They're concerned with their own ethos. When you're writing for a magazine or pitching a story to the magazine, you're trying to fit into their world, right? Then meet you and then fit in yours. So figuring out like, what shape the key is that unlock the door, you know, it's a different key for every door. It's not, it's not the same, really tailoring, really being specific. I love getting pitches that have a level of understanding and show some scholarships.

Similarly, like I would never pitch a publication something that I don't think is a good fit for them. So I think it's having a very realistic sense of what's worth somebody's time and what's not. And in the end that's more respectful of yourself and your own time too. You know, we, we are, we're all limited on time. We're all short on resources so I think, you know, finding a way to be really strategic, really efficient is really important. 

Hanna (07:00): So, in the coming months, what kinds of topics are you looking to cover? 

Howie (07:05): Oh, you know, I'm, I'm so tired.

Hanna (07:10): We all are. 

Michael (07:11): We can relate. 

Howie (07:11): I feel like it's just, it's still kind of fighting through something right now, but I, you know, I want the same things I've always wanted. I want stories with feeling. I want stories that move people. I want stories that show change. I've never really been so interested in this is new, so therefore it's news. Um, I'm always interested in the people behind something, why something matters to them.

Um, yeah and I want big stories, you know, I think there has to be an ambition to this too. I think it's also an entertainment product, so you want people to read your stuff and think like, wow, that's amazing. That's an incredible tale, you know? I feel like I've been there. The telling of it is so vivid. So I, you know, I think that's important too, right? I mean I think there's this sort of separation between, like what kind of stories do I want to tell and what stories do we have to tell right now? I think it's kind of this time to consolidate responsibility and it's like rationing, right? There's only, uh, we have to do what we have to do to survive. 

Michael (08:25): Absolutely. 

Hanna (08:27): I love the fact that, you know, your approach is that stories with the feeling.

Michael (08:32): Yeah and also, you know, getting to the people behind the stories is key. And speaking of people, there's so many bartenders, chefs and hotel owners who also happen to be good writers. What advice would you have for them to use these skills to raise their visibility? 

Howie (08:48): I mean, there's so many ways to get your message across that didn't exist 5 or 10 years ago. And I know you guys are in, you know, in the PR and communications business, and I know books are also very near and dear to you, but, you know, just being able to use your social media in an effective way, you see people who own businesses on social, who are really able to write about the ups and downs and the human toll and the struggle and, and what's real. And I think really being able to be an effective communicator over social media is certainly the best place to start because it's free and you can amplify yourself.

You can amplify voices that are important around you. You can show different sides of things. You can do it on a frequent basis. And you guys know how important frequency is in communication. You can't just, you know, talk to people once a month. If you're really trying to get something across it's a proposition. Work has to be a conversation. At the same time, you know, I would say to anyone who's going to be writing, that writing is something that should be done carefully.

And, you know, in a way where you kind of understand what results you're aiming for and are going to get. So you're not surprised when you write something incendiary or controversial and the million people, you know, responded in a way you didn't expect. What I'm saying is you don't want to use the platforms to set yourself back. You want to figure out ways to use them to help you spring forward. 

Hanna (10:23): Yeah, I think authenticity and the frequency and consistency. I think that that all matters.

Howie (10:29): Also editing. You know, I think one of the great lessons from journalism and then having the privilege that I've had over the years of working with so many editors is kind of understanding that, you know, sometimes the message that I want to put out into the world isn't exactly the message that the world needs to hear. So, uh, talking about it with somebody else, having a reader, having someone who you trust go over your stuff, having a filter. And I think, you know, on the one hand, it's really important to be true to yourself and express your emotions.

Um, and in another sense, it's important to be respectful enough of yourself to not put too much stuff out there that's going to get you in trouble. I mean, it's kind of like being in a relationship, right? Like you can't just say anything you want to the person you're in a relationship with just because you love them because they're close to you. It's the same thing with social, with social media, it's kind of like, you kind of got to save the workshopping for therapy. And then figure out, like, what message do you want to actually come out of your mouth or out of your fingers when you're typing.

Michael (11:33): And like any relationship you have to treat it with two respects. 

Howie (11:37): I think so.

Michael (11:37): So why don't we shift gears for a moment and talk about your podcast Takeaway Only. You interviewed amazing chefs almost every day when the pandemic started. We know firsthand just how much work it takes to do a podcast, even on a weekly basis. 

Howie (11:55): Yeah. 

Michael (11:56): Let alone doing it almost daily. It kind of blows our minds, frankly. So what, why did you choose podcasts as the platform for Takeaway Only? 

Howie (12:02): So there's kind of a backstory to Takeaway Only, which, um, I had started along with my wife, who's my business partner and our other partner, Rob Corso. We had started a podcast, a podcast production company right before the pandemic started and it's called FreeTime Media and our mission originally was really to add a layer of audio, narrative storytelling, to the experience of hospitality all around the world.

So we started working with some great clients in the hospitality space and then the pandemic hit. And then everything we had kind of worked on was, um, gone right? We couldn't go anywhere. Uh, the entire idea of what we were doing was, you know, kind of rendered impossible. So I didn't want to just cancel our company and neither did my partners. Um, and it didn't take too long to figure out that the thing we should be doing literally with the microphones we had, um, was to make a show about the hospitality industry and to not worry about, um, how it would pay dividends and not worry about how it would be financed, but just to kind of tell stories about an industry that really needed lots of people to rally around it by sharing, uh, the fine details of what was really happening.

And then we just started calling people and doing these interviews and we decided since it was, so it was an emergency, so we decided to do it every single, uh, every single day. My partner Rob had the good sense to limit me to five times a week. I wanted to do it seven days a week, and sometimes I wanted to add an eighth episode and he was like, you're gonna burn yourself out. And I did. And you know, even after doing five, five a day for a certain period of time, I, I did burn myself out. I fried myself doing that show.

Michael (14:05): That's a marathon.

Howie (14:05): Yeah but it was probably some of the most important work I've ever done. You know, it was a way to do something that, that, that mattered. I felt, I hope I got it right. 

Hanna (14:17): You did. And I think in a way you did for our industry was amazing and thank you for creating that platform to voice our frustration and love and care for our industry. So, thank you for what you did. And, um, are you planning to go back into production of the show? 

Howie (14:37): We kind of put it on hold at a certain point because I kind of realized I have to try to grow the business that I was originally intending to make. And then we've had some, um, steps forward with that. So now that we've taken some steps forward with free time, um, we were talking to this morning about how to maybe go back to Takeaway in a meaningful way, because guess what? The stories haven't stopped.

Hanna (15:04): Exactly.

Michael (15:05): They’re not going to.

Howie (15:06): It's still bad. So, um, I would like to, um, figure out a way to make some more shows and, you know, as we also really focused on everybody during the pandemic. There's a lot of issues to deal with in the hospitality world in terms of social justice and what goes on in the workplace and diversity and inclusion and making sure people who have always, um, who should have always had a voice, but never have do now. So, you know, there's, there's a way to, to be able, you know, to be able to amplify and to turn over the mic to people who should absolutely have that in front of them. So I think there's a lot to think about. There's a lot of work to still do. It remains a big story. I think about it every day.

Hanna (16:00): The last time we saw you was at the Philly Chef Conference about a year ago. And I think that was the last large scale gathering of people. And so that conference is so much more special to us. And I think that one of the highlights was meeting Chef Omar Tate.

Howie (16:21): Yeah.

Hanna (16:22): And you did a beautiful in-depth profile story in The Wall Street Journal. So my question for you is in general, how do you select people to spotlight? 

Howie (16:34): You know, Omar, we had on the podcast, too. Um, And all the work Omar's done, Omar puts the spotlight on himself. And, and I think as a journalist, like if you can't find that spotlight, if you can't find what people have done for themselves by themselves with their own vision, it was just so obvious to me. Right? It's my responsibility to find the Omars of the world. To find Omar. Omar is trying to pay respect to his entire neighborhood and make sure they have something that they haven't had before the way he can do it. And I'm moved by that.

I'm, I've always been moved by people trying to do things for, for places that, that need more, that deserve more, um, that can have more with, you know, somebody like that with some visionary leadership. I root for these, these stories of community improvement and engagement. And I mean it's a love story, right? This is somebody who loves where they're from and wants to put their entire heart into it. You know, Omar's had an incredible year, he's gotten married. His wife Sibel is now his partner. They've, you know, announced interesting real estate stuff. And they're gonna, they're gonna do this. It's going to make it, it's going to make a difference. 

Michael (18:12): No question. We enjoyed your story in Travel + Leisure about cheese, wine, and geothermal cooking in the Azores. 

Howie (18:17): Oh, that was a fun trip.

Michael (18:18): And was a great read. So what do you see as the future of travel destinations, as we gradually emerged from lockdowns and things of that sort? 

Howie (18:29): I don't know. I’m still trying to grasp what the psychological fallout of this is going to be for people and how people feel to really travel in mass and how much forgetting is going to happen about what this pandemic was and how fast, um, is there going to be a normal to go back to, is everybody going to be masked forever? Um, what kind of sanitation is going to have to happen in hotels and public places. I don't know. I think there's going to be a version of travel. People are obviously going to go places.

There's going to be a tourism industry. Um, it's going to mean more to people for one thing. I mean, you know, people are going to put more, even more into their, their livelihoods if they're on that end of it. And as, as a traveler, I mean, I haven't been on a plane in over a year. Right? And I can't wait to try it out and to see what's what. I hope everybody behaves. I hope everybody is respectful of one another. I mean, you know, the American travel experience isn't always the best display of community and public behavior.

I mean, you walk through any American airport and there's always somebody chewing out some airline employee or some airline employee barking back at something that really doesn't need to be escalated to such a level of extreme confrontation and then tension. Um, so I hope people are nice to each other. Right? I hope people are kind, I hope people care. I hope people extend, um, additional courtesy if you're a customer or a user. And I hope people extend additional hospitality if you, if you're a provider, I hope people really watch out for each other. 

Hanna (20:19): Speaking of travel. So, with your family, what country would you like to visit first and why?

Howie (20:25): Um, fun fact is I've never been out of the airport in Tokyo. It's been a lot of connecting flights and it's, it's, it's kind of like an ongoing joke. So I would love to, uh, you know, get one of those direct flights and then get out of the airport and, and experience really just experience that city for, for a long period of time. On the other hand, it would be nice to have a very beachy, quiet vacation somewhere.

That would be on my list too, but I think I miss, um, cities being themselves, right? I miss the sort of throb of culture and then the urgency of togetherness and, you know, we're in New York and it's a very quiet city. It's been a very quiet city for almost a year. And it's an incredible, it's an incredible kind of quiet. Um, and it's moving in a lot of ways, but I miss the way it was. 

Hanna (21:23): Yeah, us too. So, um, we call our podcast Hospitality Forward because we are optimistic about our future. So in your opinion, um, is there any one or any organization that is doing something really special and is moving our hospitality forward?

Howie (21:43): I mean, World Central Kitchen is always the first thing that comes to mind. 'm sure a lot of people will say this, but it's hard for me not to think of them first. Um, you know, I've worked with Jose on several stories and I have a lot of respect for their CEO, Nate Mook, and then Robert Edgar, who is kind of the godfather of the organization and the way they've been able to, um, become part of communities at the speed they have to do such vital things while also supporting restaurants and making sure people are able to keep their jobs with some interesting ideas about financing and, um, business operations. For me that's a big one. I think it's one way to know there's the kind of safety net for certain things going forward. And that's been incredibly moving they're an organization I think about and try to give to, you know, frequently. 

Hanna (22:45): Great choice. 

Michael (22:46): And now for the listener question segments of our show, we have a question from Shenari Freeman of an upcoming vegan soul restaurant in New York city called Cadence. Uh, she'd like to know what you think are the best ways to reach non-vegan customers.

Howie (23:03): Um, double down on deliciousness, right? I mean, if everyone's interested in food, that's, that's delicious. And I think, I hope anyways, we're maybe living in a time where the labeling of things isn't so important and maybe can take a back seat to the quality and the flavor of things. I think, you know, there's people in the city who want to support restaurants and want to eat delicious foods.

So I think maybe she can understand that she's probably got her vegan audience already, you know. That's an audience that will be a natural fit for her and for everybody else double down on the idea that her food's delicious and it'll make you happy. Right? Who doesn't want delicious food that'll make you happy? 

Hanna (23:49): I think she can definitely do that. 

Michael (23:51): So before we go, what's the best way for our listeners to contact you to pitch their ideas. 

Hanna (24:20): Well, Howie, thank you so much. It's been so great speaking with you and, and we appreciate you sharing your insights and tips with us. Hope to see you very soon and share a cocktail or a glass of wine together at our local favorite restaurant.

Howie (24:36): That would be nice. 

Michael (24:38): All right. Thank you so much for your time, Howie. 

Howie (24:40): Thank you guys. Appreciate you. 

Michael (24:41): Bye bye.