Episode #32 - Jeff Wielgopolan, Forbes Travel Guide

Michael (01:37): Hi, Jeff. Thanks for joining us. 

Hanna (01:39): Hi, great to see you. 

Jeff (01:40): Thank you. Hello Hannah. Hello, Michael. Nice to see you both as well. 

Hanna (01:43): Thank you. So you've been with Forbes Travel Guide for over 15 years. So tell us about what it is and also who's the audience and what categories do you cover? 

Jeff (1:55): Sure. So, Forbes Travel Guide is the organization that awards stars to hotels and restaurants and spas every year. Um, we like to consider ourselves the world's second oldest rating company, and we'll give Michelin the credit of being the first they've got 57 years on us, but we actually started as a company called Mobile Travel Guide. So just like Michelin created a guide to get people on the road to use their tires, we created a guide to get people on the road to use our gas. And the guide plodded along for a number of years. And then in, I’ll make a very long story short, um, 2007, we were actually purchased by a gentleman named Jeff Arnold.

So some of that's pretty unique about our company is that we are actually not owned or operated by Forbes. We're actually an independently held company that just licenses that Forbe's name onto our brand. Um, and sort of the reason for the name change is that when we began evaluating outside of the United States, we really wanted to partner with somebody whose name was a bit more synonymous in terms of luxury and sort of be able to capture that market very quickly. Um, and, uh, you know, from, we expanded outside of the United States to rate properties in Beijing in 2008 and preparation for the Olympics, and then went to Hong Kong and Macau and then that started in 2008 and we are now in 73 countries as of today.

Michael (03:24): Fantastic.

Hanna (03:25): Congratulations, that’s great.

Jeff (03:26): Expansion has been pretty and furious.

Hanna (03:28): Sounds like it.

Michael (03:29): So you, you, you mentioned, uh, some cities and, you know, the venues. What's the process for getting featured in the guide and what's, what's the criteria for getting each of those stars?

Jeff (03:41): So from, I guess from the criteria of entering, um, you don't pay to be in the guide, you can't pay to be rated there, there's none of that. Um, we, we definitely wanted to make sure that anybody who is featured is, you know, that that breeding is extremely impartial. And, uh, from, you know, and knowing the players, maybe we can kind of go into a market where we have a whole team within our readings division that locates the best of the best within that particular area. We don't go into a city and rate every hotel. We only rate what we feel is the best of the absolute best to appeal to a luxury consumer or somebody who just wants an amazing weekend or wants a really trusted place to spend their discretionary income, that if you're going to go to a five-star hotel, you know, that you can go on other websites and there are 70 different five star hotels. While, maybe there are only eight that are trusted within that city that have actually gone through an evaluation that is independent of any, any guests or sort of any bias. 

We rate properties on three different levels. We, we start with our recommendeds, which are properties that don't necessarily score at a four-star range, but there's something about them that we would still recommend our consumers to go to. So whether it's an amazing location for a hotel, whether it's an incredible chef-driven-style concept restaurant, then when we go to our fours, we'd like to consider those like the Olympic gold medal winners in service. It's a really difficult award to get and it's very difficult to keep. This is actually where, you know, the majority of Four Seasons Ritz-Carlton, St. Regis, Rosewood, they actually sit within that four-star range.

So if the fours are the Olympic Gold Medal winners, then we consider our fives to be like the Michael Phelps, the Simone Biles, Usain Bolts of the hospitality world that this really isn't about your gold medal anymore. Um, but you start to change almost the sport of hospitality because you are in it and you become the property that everybody looks up to to set the trends. So whether it's, you know, iconic properties like the Plaza Athénée or The Lanesborough in London, whether it's, you know, the French Laundry or Alinea, from a restaurant perspective, whether it's the number of spas at a Mandarin Oriental. That once again, they become sort of the benchmarks within the hospitality world.

Hanna (06:18): So best of the best of the best.

Jeff (06:20): That's what we deal with. We're very fortunate to have a very small sector of the hospitality world, but it's been, it's been an amazing ride that's for sure. 

Hanna (06:29): Travel is such a big part of your job, and we know that you traveled to almost six continents and stayed at hundreds of five-star and four star-hotels.

Michael (06:40): And we're very jealous.

Hanna (06:42): Very jealous. So how has the pandemic changed the way you work? 

Jeff (06:46): Oh my goodness. Um, you know, when travel is literally the middle name of your company, and that completely stops, you have to pivot and you have to come up with ways in which to continue to support your team and obviously the hospitality world. What we found, obviously in March of last year, when the sort of the world stopped, is we thought, what could we do to continue to support the industry?

So we actually began putting together a weekly webinar and it would focus on 10 different topics and it turned out to be an amazing community that was built for people who were furloughed or for people who just wanted some continuing education. Um, we had these amazing chats going where people would talk about like great things that they were doing at their property, or up to date information on new COVID protocols and procedures. And so from an in-person perspective, we almost changed to a virtual training. And then, now we are transitioning back to sort of a mix of virtual and in-person. Um, within my own company, based on what we learned from the financial crisis over a decade ago, that unlike that, maybe the luxury segment would be the first to bounce back. That if you're going to stay in sort of a downtown convention style hotel, there's probably a different reason why you're staying in that hotel. Versus if you're staying at a luxury hotel, it almost becomes its own destination. 

And then, and we've certainly seen that over the past couple of months from spring break onwards, you know, that that four and five star resort market is doing exceptionally well. City hotels are doing really great on weekends. So we're, we're still not out of it, but I would rather be an optimist than a pessimist. So we're starting to see a good amount of recovery within that segment in the hospitality world in general. I mean, it's been, of course. A remarkably difficult year.

Michael (08:54): Absolutely, and I think consumers associate the higher quality with a higher level of safety and hygiene and etcetera. 

Jeff (09:03): Right. But there's an idea that if you stay at a Four Seasons, that your room is going to be impeccably clean anyway. 

Hanna (09:09): Absolutely. 

Jeff (09:10): Right, and so the buy-in is much, much faster there. And then obviously there's a remarkable sense of trust that each of those luxury brands have built over the course of decades with their consumers. That, you know, you can, you can come here and we will have done everything on the back end and all of the research and put all of the processes and the sequence of service into place. So that way you can just come in and enjoy. 

Michael (09:36): So let's talk about the annual Star Awards, which were recently announced. In your opinion, I know this is probably going to be a, a gross over simplification, but what does it really take for a hotel to earn a five-star rating? 

Jeff (09:52): Well, I'll give you two answers. So first I'll give you the very, I'll give you the very technical one. Is that in a hotel evaluation, we have about 500 standards. In a spa, we have about 220. And then in a restaurant we have about 180. If you achieve 90% of those standards, congratulations, you're a five, if you achieve 80% of them, congratulations, you're four. So that's a math perspective. That's sort of the way that it works. From a feeling perspective and, you know, where you start to see the difference is that there's, I think a great five star property really focuses in on the experience they're giving to their guests and not necessarily a department.

And what I mean by that is that if you can check in at any hotel, but you will arrive at a five, like there should be that feeling, that energy, that sense of urgency from each staff member that they are proud to have you. That they think less about almost the steps of service as they do, like thinking about you, is this the point where they may tell, you know, how the best experience at the hotel is you know, sun is setting right now at 7:30pm, so go to this spot to be able to enjoy it. That, you know, here's something that's really unique about the room. Just to help you set yourself up for success and be comfortable in your new space. That, uh, that it's sort of less about a quote-unquote, achieving a standard, but they take you through and show off the really unique personality of themselves. So I, you know, I think what a great five-star property does is that it just is so confident in itself that just goes out and delivers and says, here's who we are. 

Hanna (11:40): Well, I want to be there. I want to be at every venue. I want to travel now.  I'm so yearning for that. 

Jeff (11:47): It's been nice to actually see some recovery. Throughout the industry and, um, and pardon the pun, but guests are hungry for it

Hanna (11:55): Absolutely. Absolutely. 

Michael (11:56): We certainly are.

Hanna (11:57): Yeah. So, I mean, given travel restrictions now, how were the judges able to do their job without even experiencing the properties first hand?

Jeff (12:08): Well last year we had some new additions to our recommended four and our five star list. If you were almost lucky enough to be evaluated in that January through March timeframe then, so that we, you know, obviously if you were in, we promoted you. Um, all ratings were suspended basically from April through the rest of 2020. And so now we have actually just started to resume evaluations for 2022 on April 1st of this year. And so we're going to go almost like quarter by quarter, um, for the second, third and fourth, to evaluate that, you know, hotels are open. So, um, and, and opening. So if, you know, if you're charging the amount than what you are, then that certainly the product should be, should be there. Right. 

Michael (13:03): Uh, we saw that this year, the awards honored Hisashi Sugimoto, the 80 year old Master Bartender at Tokyo Station Hotel. It impressed us to no end, I mean, to be winning awards at age 80, God bless.

Hanna (13:17): And he is still working and shaking and stirring cocktails at the bar. 

Michael (13:20): Incredible.

Jeff (13:21): Isn’t it amazing.

Hanna (13:24): A beautiful thing. It is such a beautiful thing. 

Michael (13:25): So my question is, are there any plans to have bars be a standalone category like restaurants are a standalone category?

Jeff (13:33): Well, I guess first, you know, we were really excited to be able to announce an employee of the year. And, uh, um, you know, spa employee of the year, restaurant employee of the year. You know, we actually haven't done that in the past, but felt like this would be a really great year to recognize not only properties, but individuals within our industry and, um, I'm pretty confident we're going to keep that, that going for years on, right. 

For, you know, for specific bars, I can't say as of now that that's an avenue where we'll independently, but you know, something that is pretty unique about those, I guess those 500 standards for a hotel is that the two largest departments in a hotel evaluation are actually hotel dining in the bar in the lounge. And the, you know, there's, there's sort of a strategic reason why we do that is that those are really the only two places in a hotel that anyone can come and visit. And so if someone would just want to go and stay in a hotel or, you know, is staying in the area or living in the area and just wants to go and experience a five-star property or what can they do? They can go in at breakfast and lunch in the restaurant. They can go get a cocktail in the lounge. And you know, that property's reputation may sit on the Old Fashioned that you get, right. An amazing experience. What do you think of the hotel? If you have a terrible experience, you know, the building that houses hundreds of people, no, their reputation goes down in flames because of, you know, the, the service that was just given. So we place a bit more emphasis on those two areas for sure. 

Hanna (15:12): Well speaking of bars and restaurants. So once travel comes back, what country would you like to visit first and why? 

Jeff (15:23): I'm going to give a really, maybe a corny answer, but you know, I think that my favorite place to travel is the place I haven't been to yet.

Hanna (15:32): Ok, which is very, what, you've traveled to six continents. So what's left?

Michael (15:38): And there aren’t many left I’m sure. 

Jeff (15:41): From a place that I would love to go back to, I would love to go back to Japan. I would love to go back to South Africa and spend some more time in Cape Town. I'd love to be able to explore more of South America. Um, I could say something like Rome or Paris, and those are always amazing, you know, magnetic cities. Um, but there's always something about learning and exploring something new that has always been really fascinating, you know, and not only just to see product, but to see like what hospitality is like, you know. If you go down to the Los Cabos or Riviera Maya, there's a special place in my hospitality heart for Mexican hospitality. I just think it's so gracious and warm and like there's a, there's a heart to it. Um, you, you may go to you know, uh, iconic Parisian hotels, and there's just like a sharpness and crispness and like this overwhelming, like chicness, that just makes you feel more yourself than, um, than you would otherwise. Right? So there's things like there's something that's really, that's really interesting about the way in which certain cultures interpret hospitality and the way that they bring that out to the guest. 

Hanna (16:56): Yeah. Hospitality is all about the people and hearts and emotional connections. You know? 

Michael (17:03): So we very much enjoyed reading the 35 most anticipated hotel openings of 2021.

It's given us a real bucket list of hotels to check off. Where do you all find these hotels? Are they suggested by outsiders or PR professionals like us? Or is it strictly internal within the guide team? 

Jeff (17:24): I would, I would have to say that it's a little bit of both. From a luxury hotel standpoint and maybe even a luxury restaurant standpoint, we're lucky enough that they don't just pop up. There's usually a good year, two years, two and a half years of construction. Um, after that it's been announced. So there is a good, like lead time for us to be able to put those together. Um, you know, we have an Executive Editor here at Forbes Travel Guide. Her name is Jennifer Kester and her and our ratings team that is held by, uh, Amanda Frasier, oversee all of that public relations who are the new players and what's coming up. 

Michael (18:09): Good to know that.

Hanna (18:10): All right. So, uh, what types of innovation have you seen in the travel and hospitality industry over the past year that you think will stay in place even after the pandemic is over? 

Jeff (18:23): There are a lot. And you know, I think that the properties that really embraced that creativity and sort of different ways of doing something are the properties that are obviously much stronger in terms of occupancy and in business now. Um, you know that from the ability to communicate with your guests via an app or through texts, you know, I think is great for some reason like I think the luxury hospitality world sort of held off on that for a very long time, thinking like you can't text a guests, like that's not elegant. That's like, well, you know, luxury is, is what you want when you want it.

Um, from, I think from food and beverage, you know, uh, I love the idea that we've been able to almost like take concepts and be able to place them outside of that, of sort of that physical brick and mortar space. You know, I could think of at the Rosewood Miramar Beach, you can go and enjoy bottled Manor bar cocktails, um, that are, you know, available for purchase. You know, there's a, there's a restaurant called Pasjoli in Santa Monica, which was the sister restaurant for the five-star dialogue. Um, and something that I thought was brilliant, that they did is that they had, you know, take home souffle kits.

Michael(19:42): Wow.

Hanna (19:42): Oooo.

Jeff (19:43): But I thought that it was really brilliant that you're not just, you're not just selling packaged food. You're not just selling something to go, but you're actually selling the experience of the restaurant.

Hanna (19:53): Exactly.

Jeff (19:54): But almost with no effort. Right? So you get to pretend like you're on the food network and make your souffle, but you didn't really have to do anything. Um, so people want a fine dining restaurant experience. Like the rest of those restaurants are going to come roaring back, um, with people who are, are looking to just bask in not having to cook a meal and not having to set a table and not having to do dishes and not having to go purchase everything and just be taken care of. 

Michael (20:30): We need it now more than ever.

Jeff (20:31): We do. We do. 

Michael (20:33): We call our podcast Hospitality Forward because we believe in the future of our industry. Can you tell us if there's anyone or any organization that you think is doing really great work in terms of moving hospitality forward? 

Jeff (20:47): You know, from, you know, I love a lot of our independent restaurants. I’ll give so much credit to, you know, Dan Gell for rethinking what a restaurant should be and what a hotel restaurant should be and his little pop-up at the The Plant Tire. Um, and I'll give a shout out to the chef and Pasjoli, Dave Baron, who really reconcepted what a fine dining restaurant is. And then you can have it at home and you don't have to sacrifice, you don't have to sacrifice quality. I think a lot of Relais and Chateaux hotels and resorts did a great job at, um, you know, sort of small enough to be able to very quickly pivot. But you know, you have a property like Ocean House in Rhode Island, where since you couldn't go to the bar, that they actually had built a bar cart and painted it Ferrari red and match the color of the leather of the chairs in the lounge. And they would go up and down, up and down the halls during cocktail hour 

Hanna (21:49): Love that.

Jeff (21:50): And, you know, serve cocktails and snacks. So that way you can still have a cocktail, but in the comfort of your own room and be able to watch the sunset over the Atlantic. Um, I think that, you know, there's, Daisy Tepper, who's the spa director here at the Post Oak or the Post Oak in Houston where I live now. I think they did an amazing job at creating a spa experience that makes people really safe, but also incredibly elegant that everything is, you know, that you are given like your own individual juice.

You're given your own snack. You're given your own package of amenities. That's um, you know, I, I hope that those trends actually continue to stay. You saw a lot of innovation. I mean, I can go on, there's a gentleman named Rick Remedio, who is the general manager of Kimpton Lapeer, who just rethought everything and said, all right, well, we have all of this banquet space in our hotel that's being unused. Could we have like a weekly bazaar, where we may be able to have local artisans and farmers come in and we can have this big market that's socially distanced and we can support all of these places within the industry.

Hanna (22:59): So clever. 

Jeff (23:00): Just remarkable, remarkable amounts of creativity. I mean, I can go on and on and on.

Michael (23:05): And now for the listeners questions segment of our show, we have a question from Augustina Peroni of Connaught Bar at London's Cutout Hotel, which earned five stars from Forbes Travel Guide in 2021. And the bar itself ranked number one on the World's 50 Best Bars list. What do you think about the future of hotel bars and what people are going to be looking for when travel restrictions ease?

Jeff (23:33): You know, from a hotel bar, and I'm not just saying that because you asked, but it is by far my favorite place within a hotel. There’s nothing better than an amazing hotel bar to get an immediate sense of place of where you are to get an understanding of the hotel, of getting an understanding of, you know, how the bartending team can sort of interpret a cocktail to the way in which, you know, over where it is that you are. No, you can think of the great history from Bemelmans Bar at the Carlyle to the place that it has in society. Um, you know, you can be a little voyeuristic and be able to, I've watched guests and locals hang out. I think there's nothing like it. 

Michael (24:20): Agreed. 

Jeff (24:22): You know, I think that what I would hope is that operators see the value of a great hotel bar and don't necessarily think of it as just an amenity. Now as border starts to open up, people are going to are going to do really want that social setting and want to see people and enjoy an old fashioned while doing it. 

Hanna (24:42): Yes. An Old fashioned. I'm getting thirsty already.

Jeff (24:46): By listening to this podcast, I know that's a particular favorite.