Episode #35 - Kat Odell, Vogue, Thrillist, New York Times’ T Magazine, Eater and more

Hanna (01:29): Hi, Kat, welcome to the show.

Michael (01:30): So great to see you.

Kat (01:33): Thanks guys. Great to see you as well.

Hanna (1:36): Kat, you are a Taste Hunter for the World's 50 Best Restaurants and the World’s 50 Best Bars. So what does that entail and what do you do for them? 

Kat (1:48): Sure. So I've been part of the 50 Best organization for about three-ish, three plus years now. Um, and I work with them in two different capacities. I work with 50 Best as a writer, journalist. So I write a lot of the winner profiles. Um, when you see the awards listed, you know, one to 50, I've written a lot of those profiles. I've also contributed to their blog/website which can be articles. It can also be specific features targeted to certain awards that chefs are winning. So that's sort of like the journalistic side of what I do. 

And then 50 Best also has a group of about 20 people around the world, food and drink enthusiasts that they file under a category called Taste Hunter. And so, um, it's a big social media endeavor and we work with the brand in providing content, we travel all around the world and eat and drink and photograph food and drink. And then we post on our own channels. And then of course we also share with 50 Best and they post on all of their channels. So, you know, it's a way to help generate awareness about different restaurants and bars around the world. As somebody that loves to travel and loves to eat and drink, um, that's really fun to be part of their organization.

Hanna (03:06): What a fun job.

Michael (03:08): How do we sign up for that? 

Kat (03:12): No. No, I don't know. You just have to like, love to eat and drink. 

Michael (03:15): So Kat, you've been a freelance writer for many years now, covering a really wide array of topics from food and drinks to wellness and travel. So how did the pandemic change the way you work and did it give you any new perspectives on how to approach a story? 

Kat (03:33): So what I most we've found, um, with a lot of the editors that I work with is that the scope of content was different. So for example, I’ve worked a lot with Food & Wine, and I covered a lot of new openings. And so of course, you know, during a pandemic there aren't any openings and you know, our industry over the time has pivoted, very much. And I actually saw this coming pandemic aside, but I'm really focusing more than ever on delivery models. So I started pivoting a lot and focusing obviously on businesses that were offering to-go. And then, of course with, you know, the outdoor dining options. So I'm writing these maps, you know, having to specify rather than taking for granted that you have an indoor dining option or a bar option, which luckily we now have bar seats again, but making sure to call out how, how you can order and where you can sit. Which, you know, I never had to do in the past.

Michael (04:41): Restaurants have been looking to expand beyond their four walls. And delivery is a very important component of that, obviously.

Michael (04:47) And you know, so many restaurants are erected at outdoor structures. Um, For, for, you know, added seats. But from speaking to a lot of operators the outdoor dining option, which of course so many restaurants could never have in the past, has been so successful that I think many people want to want to keep those seats. Of course, during the summer, when everyone is keen to sit outside, that's even better. I've also noticed, I live in Dumbo, so some of the roads are blocked off and there's just like all these outdoor dining seats for businesses to take advantage of, which is really nice. Another great example is I, uh, really I love yakitori and there's a newish spot called Chikarashi Isso, and it's at The 50 Bowery Hotel on the second floor and they built this really beautiful, very Japanese tea house, designed outdoor structure that really actually, I've sat out there when it's pretty cold and it does really shield the wind very well, but it's perfect for outdoors.

And if you can imagine sitting at a counter with a large bincho tent, and this large bincho grill, you know, and the smell of bincho wafting in the air. It's actually really magical and they've done such an amazing job and it's going to be incredible. You know this summer when it's really amazing and pleasant to sit outside. So there's, I think, you know, it's been such a tough time, such a tough year for so many people, but, um, I know there's also a lot of people that have had really positive outcomes from the pandemic, which is really, you know, like silver lining.

Hanna (6:15): That's very true. Speaking of Japanese food, actually, I enjoyed reading your great roundup on Thrillist of the best omakase sushi menus in New York City. So you know, there are a lot of omakase sushi restaurants in town. What are the top factors when you're choosing a place to cover.

Kat (6:37): You know, the entire experience factors in, um, you have to, it has to be a bar. It has to be a counter for me. I'm really particular about any type of sushi dining. If it's not a bar, I won't bother going to be honest because it changes the dynamic of the experience. For a proper omakase, you really need to be able to eat the bite and put it in 10 seconds and when, unfortunately, when you're sitting at a table, you can't do that. Obviously the quality of what's being served, so the rice and the fish, and actually the rice is the most important component. It's not the fish. The fish is very important. So I go on Instagram and I look at what the nigiri looks like. First of course, I want to learn about the chef, but I look at the rice. It's very detailed, but I look at how the rice is polished, which can give an indication of the quality of rice that's being used, which also gives me an indication of the overall experience.

Michael (7:35): In terms of, uh, places getting on your radar. Do a lot of them come from PR pitches or is it word of mouth or is it used scrolling Instagram?

Kat (7:43): Um, it's all of the above. I think word of mouth is the most powerful personally. I get a lot of pitches and typically what I do is if it's a restaurant that I'm unfamiliar with, I'll click on their Instagram and I like to see what, what they have on there. Instagram is a really powerful tool.

Um, I feel like I have a good ability to judge the quality of a restaurant by the photos. I see and tell if it's something that I'm going to like, based on what the food looks like, how it's plated, ingredients used. So I will typically go on Instagram and then I like to read menus.  So I also will read a menu before I determine if it's a place I want to go, unless it's, you know, a chef that I'm already a fan of. Like if the Sushi Noz team opened something, I'd go there no matter what, just because I already trust them and you know, I trust the quality of what they're going to be serving. So it varies. Um, I definitely learned about places through PR pitches. Word of mouth is very important. And then I do randomly find on Instagram just through other people, posting new restaurants as well, or just like places that I want to go, that I haven't been.

Hanna (08:53): In addition to Instagram or your own personal connections, how do you find fresh new ideas all the time? And also new sources to interview? 

Kat (09:03): A lot of what I am inspired by are random occurrences in my life. For example, I might not be able to find a like really great, jamon de barrio . That'll inspire me to suggest a guide on where do you get the best jamon in New York City. Also I think being out so often, I experience a lot of trends in restaurants. Um, you have to be out there in order to really know what's going on and pick up on things, overlapping ideas that chefs are latching on to, or, or trends other trends in like genres of food or even it could be techniques, cocktails, it really varies. But a lot of it is just from personal experience really.

Hanna (09:53): You have an incredible chef boyfriend, Mike, does he give you some tips on where to go? Where to find some sources?

Kat (09:55): I give him all the tips, he likes to joke about like to his friends. He's like, I don't know what we're ever doing anywhere, I just like hang on to her shirt and she brings me places. Yeah, he doesn't, he doesn't stay on top of it the way that I do. And he loves, he's an avid diner, you know, loves to dine, love to experience food. And, um, and I think he really trusts me in my sort of like opinion on where we should go. But for me, anytime I travel anywhere, I do extensive research on what the top restaurants are. When I say top, it doesn't have to be fancy, fine dining, I just want the most authentic version of the cuisine of wherever I am and wherever I'm heading. So like, we're going to Morocco in a couple of weeks, so I've been doing a lot of Morocco research. Um, we're going to Miami next week or this week, actually Mike is cooking for South Beach Food and Wine.

So I've been trying to figure out if there's anything we want to try. Yeah. So I do all the research. He just, he comes along for the ride. 

Hanna (11:05): All right, now let's talk about some practical tips for our audience. I know they as chefs and sommeliers and bartenders and more so. Other than doing the homework and knowing what you do, what are do's and don'ts there, which you recommend for our listeners. How do they get to you? 

Kat (11:22): I think it's really important to not copy what other people are doing and have original ideas. So just thinking off the top of my head, one of like a cocktail feature that I did right before, um, COVID sort of kicked in, was I received a pitch about a bartender in Brooklyn, making drinks with burrata water, which I thought was really, really interesting. It creates this viscous mouth feel in a cocktail, um, while adding like a salinity and a subtle creaminess. So that's something that really stood out to me. And I think that, you know, there's so many people, whether it's in restaurants or bars and a lot of people copy, copy, copy. So, you know, I'm always on the lookout for something that I haven't experienced and something that is new and novel, but not something, something that makes sense, something that I'm not like. Changing the color of a cocktail and turning it all rainbow and purple, I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in a smart idea that stands out and will yield a delicious product. 

So I think it's really important to have creativity. And also when specific to writing pitches, you know, long pitches are not great. I don't read them unless it's an article that I'm working on. It's important to start the topic of whatever it is you're emailing and highlight whatever is most interesting or unique about that venue and call that out from the very beginning, because a lot of people just don't have time. You know, spend five, 10 minutes on an email. Um, just because of so many other things that people have on their plates these days. Um, I always, I always like it when somebody sort of understands my writing style and what I would be interested in and pulls out that one thing that stands out and says this is an interesting idea. And the burrata water article that's exactly what that person had done. And I was like, that is actually really cool. And I wanted to write about that. So that would be my piece of advice. 

Michael (13:14): Good advice. Good advice. So let's move on to another topic. I know you're, uh, you're quite an accomplished author. I just finished my first book, so I know how much work goes into it, unless you've done it, you know, you don't really know, but you have two books under your belt, uh, Day Drinking and Unicorn Food. So congratulations on that. 

Hanna (13:37): Do you have any other new books in the pipeline? 

Kat (13:38): Well, not a book, but we will be opening a restaurant. 

Hanna (13:50): Tell me more. I know you've been dreaming about it with Mike for a long time. 

Kat (13:52): Yeah. Well, we are looking at a space in the West Village that we're about to sign a lease on. So maybe, next year. 

Hanna (13:59): So what is the cuisine? What is the concept? 

Kat (14:02): Um, it will have Japanese influence of course.

Hanna (14:09): That isn't a surprise given your passion for all things, Japanese food and culture. That's great. Congratulations. 

Michael (14:11): You know, obviously the restaurant and the bar business faced a huge existential crisis with the pandemic and now really from a personal point of view, you know, you're getting back into the game. So how do you see the experience changing as a result of the pandemic? Or is it going back to what we knew or are you and other restaurant tours looking at this from a different point of view? 

Kat (14:36): Well, I think on the subject of delivery models that will continue. And I think that will only grow. And I also think that the idea of having, let's say like a ghost kitchen, right? Without an actual brick and mortar location, more just a concept. I think that that idea of a ghost kitchen. Well, there will be more operators opening ghost kitchens, but under, you know, under their like preestablished restaurant umbrella. So it won't just be some random person you've never heard of, but it'll be, you know, really thoughtful concepts. Because I do think that delivery models will continue to thrive. So there's sort of that aspect of the conversation.

That being said, you know, I think that, for so long, um, people haven't been able to dine out and have experiential, um, meals and I think that this concept of like ticketed dining experiences and meals that are more than just sitting at a table and eating food will also continue to grow because people haven't been able to experience really special meals in so long. And I think so many people are looking for this like elevated, special dining experience. So I really see tasting menus coming back strongly, people looking for experiential meals, but you know, Mike and I have had this conversation of what the future of dining look like, and I have different answers for that, but I also think that there's something to be said I don't, I really don't really have the exact answer, but I think there's something to be said for, you know, sitting down, um, scanning a QR code, having a pretty seamless meal, even ordering in advance before you get to a restaurant.

I think there'll be technological advances that do change the face of what dining in a restaurant looks like. Um, and I think that's very slowly starting to happen and will continue to happen. I don't know exactly what the outcome will be yet, but I do think that the way people eat pre-pandemic will be different going forward in the future.

Michael (16:31): What do you think about the automat concept coming back? You know, basically the food is prepared and it's sitting in a heated booth and you go up and grab it. 

Kat (16:50): That concept doesn't speak to me because I don't ever, I'm the type of person that I want. All of my food is always prepared fresh. I won't go somewhere that has food sitting out. I've never liked it buffets. I've never liked, um, pre-prepared salads sitting in cases. I always want something freshly made because it's just not as good when it's just sitting out all day. Um, but I think that, you know, quick serve models will do well, but I, but I also sort of, I sort of see this, um, the middle ground, so, you know, fast-casual, and then very high end. And I could see the middle ground of operators actually losing some business because people want affordable eats coming out of the pandemic. People perhaps don't have as much money to spend on dining, but then you also have people that want to save up and spend on these crazy dining experiences to have a really special evening. So if anything, I would see that sort of like middle genre of restaurant, maybe suffering a little bit more than the other two sort of classes of dining.

Hanna (17:40): Interesting. So we all know that you have the travel bug well after Miami and Morocco, what is the next destination that you are excited about?

Kat (17:54): So we're actually about to get a puppy. So it depends when we get our puppy because that’s affecting our ability to plan travel at the moment, based on the fact that Italy is about to reopen it could be Italy. Um, Mike is doing a collaboration in Japan in October. Japan is our top destination. If Japan were to open, they would be there. Um, we're really waiting for Asia to reopen in a way that we can return. So fingers crossed that we can go to Japan in October. We're really hoping that Americans are allowed in, that would be our top choice, but before then, we may do Italy this summer um, and that's pretty much it. We're trying to stay local a little bit more just because of potentially getting a puppy, which you know, we're not gonna be able to really travel for a while having a dog. Um, I would say that Italy would be our next focal point for travel.

Michael (18:54): Always a good choice. As you know, we call our podcast Hospitality Forward. So is there anyone or any organization in particular that you think is doing something special and is moving hospitality and travel forward?

Kat (18:59): I mean, maybe this is because I have such an affinity for Japanese cuisine, but there's a, there's a word in Japanese that's this idea of, um, it's a word that encompasses Japanese hospitality in which you anticipate what a guest needs before they even need it. So that could apply to restaurants that can apply to hotels. And I think that culturally, the Japanese are the most thoughtful and considerate of their guests. So I would, I would frankly look to places like Noz and Nakaji which, um, you know, are really wonderful in terms of FOH team.

Um, obviously they're, they're killing it. They're surveying incredible, incredible food. Um, but you know, it's small details like sitting, walking into a, walking to a counter and then before service, they start burning um, a little bit of like, Hinoki incense. So all of a sudden the entire room pre first bite is perfumed with Hinoki and it's really subtle. And maybe some people don't even notice it, right. But it’s there and it's happening. Um, but it seems like a really slight nuance, um, and voices that certain restaurants make that elevate the experience. And I always find for me that most applies to Japanese cuisine, or a Japanese restaurant. 

Hanna (20:11): Well, speaking of Japanese food and drinks, I think we will get you a copy of our agency's first book. it's co-authored with Masa, from Katana Kitten. It’s all about the Japanese out of cocktails. So it's coming out on June 1st. So we'll get you a copy. 

Kat (20:29): Congratulations!

Michael (20:52): Thank you so much for joining us. 

Kat (20:54): Thank you for having me. Great to see you both. Okay. Bye.