Episode #37 - Kirk Miller, InsideHook

Hanna (1:20): Hi Kirk. So great to see you.

Michael (1:22): Thanks for joining us.

Kirk (1:24): Hi Hanna, hi Michael.

Hanna (1:25): So, for our listeners, can you tell us about InsideHook? What kind of topics it covers?

Kirk (1:27): I, uh, joined insight hook a few months after it started. I, they went through a, um, this was 2012. It was a men's lifestyle site. They wanted to be originally something like a daily candy or Thrillist, uh, very newsletter based. Um, and it was supposed to be for successful men who didn't have enough time, but wanted to quickly read-up and, and become knowledgeable about things. It wasn't just booze or tech or style. It was everything, but just done in very, uh, quick hits. And, um, yeah. So we've been going nine years. Um, I think we've expanded a lot. We're a full fledged website in the last year. We've grown. Our audience has grown five times bigger than it was 2019. Um, and we write a lot about hospitality. I would say that's the main focus of what I do, but, um, I'll also write about travel and technology and even how those, um, all those things intersect as well. And then other people on the site write about, uh, relationships or automobiles or, uh, things that I guess you can call men's lifestyle. But I think just our broader lifestyle categories. 

Kirk (2:30): So Kirk, in your opinion, what's the difference between an InsideHook story and a story in any other publication?

Well, I think we’ll get the facts, right? We'll talk to people. Um, you know, those general journalistic standards will be there. Um, I think we're one of the few publications that allows, uh, personality and voice, I think. And I'm going to use these other sites as an example. And I don't mean this negatively. These are sites I use as resources. And I like, but I don't think you'll get that at Insider or Forbes or you will, but there'll be considered opinion columns or whatever. I think almost in everything we write or particularly in anything I write, even if it's a news story about. Uh, you know, the top five, uh, spirits brands in the world, which is just something I wrote this morning, which is pretty dry. I will try to inject some sort of, uh, personality. I'll try to reference other things I've written. I'll try to give context. And I think I'll just try to make it a little more personable.

I, um, I look to sites, like, I guess I used to, it used to be called Grant Land, but I looked at something like The Ringer where you start to know the writers and it's not just like, oh, here's the news, or here's an opinion piece. It's like, here's what this person is thinking. And, um, That's why I don't always agree with everything we write, but I really appreciate having all those different voices at the publication.

Hanna (3:54): So you have a two titles, Managing Editor and National Editor. So you get to write and assign articles. What's the process for finding great stories?

Kirk (4:04): Um, so we've gone through periods where we've had freelancers and we've gone through periods where we've done everything in house. And in the last few years, we've, uh, we were sold in 2018 and we, uh, since then have been able to, um, bring in a lot more freelancers.

So the process for me is just finding writers I like, usually just through recommendations. Um, I've asked publicists, I've asked, um, bartenders and mixologists, other writer friends who maybe can't work for me, but may know somebody. And then, um, you know, it's a pretty simple process. They'll pitch me a few ideas. Um, we'll pay them, uh, I would say industry standard rate and, um, the usual back and forth. And, um, you know what I'm looking for for a writer, I think I've got kind of, most of the spirit's angles covered, but I don't know a lot about wine. So I've been assigning a lot of wine content recently because there are people out there, I would say almost everyone, who knows more about wine than I do. So when I read something, and I learn something, and I get really excited about learning something, that's when I know I found a good ride. 

Hanna (5:06): So do you use social media as part of your research to, uh, uncover stories?

Kirk (5:08): Sure. Um, I would say the main, uh, I guess app that we use as a site, it's an RSS reader called Feedly and I subscribed to about a thousand different publications and, um, It's it's really a great way in about 30 minutes each morning, I can get kind of a snapshot of what's going on in the world and I can divide it by category and use keyword searches and things, but I'll use Twitter. I'll use Instagram. Um, I don't like to use Facebook. I'm sorry if you guys use it, we have to use it. I, um, I've written some anti-Facebook articles in the past about just their, uh, you know, with them as a corporation, but, you know, we use everything. I try to use TikToK, um, the younger people on staff or, much much, much better at it than I am. We did an article about bartenders. That was fantastic, but I never could have written. I just wouldn't even know how to start. And, uh, our 23 year old Assistant Editor just pitched it and wrote a great article.

Hanna (6:06): On TikTok, we found some really good content, you know, by just flipping through the feed and it's as entertaining as it is educational. I think TikTok comes in handy sometimes.

Michael (6:18): So speaking about something more recent, uh, you did a great story on Uncle Nearest, uh, launching a $50 million venture fund to help BIPOC and women-owned spirits brands. You know, it was fascinating that, uh, you know, Jackie Summers, uh, has his company, Sorel, was one of the recipients. But we had no idea that he was actually homeless for a period of time while he was pounding the pavement, you know, selling Sorel. You can't get more dedicated to that.

Kirk (6:53):  I know I, when I read that, I didn't know that either. We knew about that brand from years ago, I think when it launched. And then I hadn't heard about it for a little while. And then when I read that, um, I'm a huge Uncle Nearest fan, just, uh, the story behind that. And, um, that article a few years ago, that pretty much launched Fawn Weaver to launch Uncle Nearest. I think I called it, um, the most important story in American Whiskey history. It just, uh, it just really reshapes the entire conversation. And then for that brand to go from, they didn't exist in 2016 and it's not 2021, and they're the fastest growing whiskey brand over there available in 50 states. And they launched last year, a $5 million sort of mentorship program, which I think is really important. And then this $50 million, I'm hoping I'm getting these figures right, but just the amount of money and success that they've been able to put back in. And, um, oh, it's also a good whiskey. I mean, that's the most at the end of the day, if it's not good whiskey, that's a real problem. And it's a great product. And, um, yeah, I, I think they are leading the way and they're going to provide a lot of people chances that wouldn't necessarily have had chances before within the industry.

Michael (7:58): So how'd you find that story? 

Kirk (8:01):I was invited to a tasting and I went in there thinking, oh, I like whiskey. The New York Times wrote an article about so this will be interesting. And their CEO and founder just blew me away. We did a tasting and I really liked the whiskey, but her story and her passion blew me away. And immediately I had some questions cause I was like, well, is she connected to this? And I had questions and I would even say concerns that came up and then I was invited down there, uh, to the distillery just before it launched. And, um, I got to talk to her and I got to talk to descendants of the slave who had been friends with, uh, Nearest Green who had been friends with, uh, Jack Daniels and, uh, you know, a story builds. I talked to Fawn a few times. I talked to, uh, their master distiller. After a while you just build a picture in your head and you're like, wow, I want to keep writing about this brand. And then everything they do is just so, uh, you know, it's just everything they do. The $5 million last year, the $50 million this year, the winning all the awards, the festival run whiskey brand, the stories keep writing itself. Um, I don't know what they're going to do next because they're so successful. 

Kirk (9:10): Speaking of great stories, you had a wonderful interview with Edward Slingerland, uh, the author of Drunk: How we sipped, Danced and Stumbled our way to Civilization. At a time when low ABV and no ABV cocktails are very popular, you know, he comes across as a real cheerleader for alcohol, crediting it with unleashing creativity and, uh, create, you know, creating social bonds amongst people. But he's also, you know, very upfront about, you know, the, the side effects and the fact that, you know, we're not evolutionarily evolved enough to really process, you know, high alcohol spirits, you know, it's a little bit ahead of us and there, there are definitely social costs.

Uh, but do you think, you know, he was alluding to the fact that, you know, in traditional societies, uh, drinking is, it's a communal activity. It's very regulated as a result, you know. Do you think there's any way to go back to that kind of relationship towards alcohol or is the genie out of the bottle and it's just the drizzly away and, you know, we're, we're all getting soused at home watching Netflix or whatever, right?

Kirk (10:25): Yeah. Well, I think it's going to be a combination of both first. I see the next few months, especially because it's summer. That, uh, uh, based off of the bars I walked by and I know we haven't lifted all the restrictions, but it certainly looks like a lot of venues near me are pretty packed.

I think people are craving, I know I am, I was surprised, I would go out last summer a little bit. There was one bar, there were a couple of places that I felt safe that had outdoor spaces. Um, the ones in the, you know, basically in the middle of the street, um, and I would, I would drink a little bit in prospect park with friends. I've never liked drinking alone. And I think, uh, Professor Slingerland was absolutely correct, the more communal you can make it. Uh, so before, I guess it was like in a society, you'd have a toastmaster who kind of regulated when you drank and you only really drank when you were in communal settings.

I don't necessarily want to go back to that. I do occasionally like a glass of whiskey while I'm watching Netflix. But, uh, I, even if it's with one friend, I like the idea of people around me and a bartender or you occasionally talk to without a mask. Just the general gentleness of people around you and, um, that regulates you in a way you can't sit around while you can, it's just not healthy, you can't sit around a bunch of people and sort of get drunk on your own unless you're in a very bad place, I think. And I think if you're, uh, I think once we get back to the idea of going back to bars, um, I think it sounds strange and counter-intuitive, but I think our drinking will become healthier. I'm not sure, you know, but I just think it can't hurt to bring human interaction back into the, into the mix.

Michael (12:03): Absolutely. It’s the ultimate social lubricant.

Hanna (12:06):As a fan of Bruno Mars, I enjoyed your recent story on the singer and his Silver Ray rum. 

I mean, I can see why Bruno would get your attention, but for our listeners who range from bartenders to chefs, to sommeliers, to travel agents and travel advisors, how can they get on your radar?

Kirk (12:35): Hmm. Well, the interesting thing about Silver Ray, uh, which is the Bruno Mars rum, I like to, uh, very briefly, what I liked about that story was that he wasn't him creating a run from scratch, which I want to believe to that story. Anyway, he's very talented. I just don't think that's in his wheelhouse. It existed before, and he sort of came across and it's like, I want to be part of this. And I can respect that. And if I had talent and fame and money, you know, or one of the three I would, uh, I would probably invest in a spirits brand. Just to get on my radar, I mean, I get hundreds of emails, literally hundreds of emails a day, and 80% of them are not targeted towards me, so I can sort of ignore them because they're not presenting me with a way that I want to interact.

I would say, you know, get to know InsideHook, read up on it a little bit. Um, You know, get to know who the editors. When I get an email that says hi and has a blank space next to it, um, I'm not gonna answer. 

I don't pick up the phone. Well, especially since I'm home, uh, I don't even know how people would find my number, so I would never pick it up. You have to start with email. I've occasionally gotten pitches through LinkedIn. I don't love it, but, um, it's worked, um, you know, get to know the publication. And pitch me something interesting. It's hard to write about, I dunno, you're releasing a new Bourbon and it's four years old and it's, you know, 80 proof, and it won a Silver at, uh, Bob's Award Show in New York. I mean, there's just a lot of things there I can't work with. Um, and the most part if you can't get it anywhere, except say, you know, one town in Texas, I'm gonna have a difficult time writing about it.

Now if it’s a hundred thousand dollar whiskey, that they only release one bottle of and it's, you know, in encased in diamond, I might write about that because it's really fun. Just interesting stories, uh, knowing the publication and pitching me on the things I write about and not pitching me on things I don't write about. I don't write a lot about women's products unless it's Mother's Day or Valentine's Day or holidays. So when I get pitched a lounge wear for women in June, I might forward it to another editor, but I probably don't even have the time to do that. But as far as booze goes, if you know me, you know, pitch me booze. Pitch me tech or pitch travel. Those are kind of the things I write about.

Hanna (15:01): How about bartenders? What are you looking for in bartenders? 

Hanna (15:03): You know, uh, this is what I look for in any writer. You know, people who will get back to me, if I ask them a question and they created something, and that's not saying they're more or less responsible than anyone else in the world, but I'm also looking for diversity and that's just, that's not even race or gender or anything. That's just like, um, maybe, you know, I think sometimes we use too many bartenders from New York. Um, I would love to get more from the Midwest or from out of the country. I would love to use, uh, you know, I know it's harder, but you know, why can't I talk to more bartenders in Scotland or, uh, you know. I did a story on, um, an Israeli whiskey distillery, the first one, uh, Milk & Honey I believe it's called. And, uh, that to me was really interesting because I was like, that's a voice I don't know. I mean, wow. A distillery in Israel already? Like I'm intrigued. That's really interesting. Um, yeah, so I just goes back to, uh, interesting stories, pitching me and knowing who I am and, um, oh, be nice. And then for bartenders, um, just having something to say, you know, like whether you're making something in a different way, or you can explain a process or, you know, like, let's say you use all the parts of a line. You don't have any waste. That's interesting. Let’s say you only use one type of rum for a Daiquiri. If you can explain why, awesome. You know, I'm up for it. I'm up for fun stories and, um, voices, I haven't heard before. So in addition to drinks and food and travel, um, we know you also love covering tech.

Hanna (16:39):The hospitality industry has gone through a lot of innovation during the pandemic as know. So what, what recent innovations tech or otherwise have you noticed in the hospitality industry? 

Kirk (16:48): Um, that can, there's a lot of different things. There's things just on the home bartender side, whether it's ways to make ice cubes, I forget the name of it, but it's something that it's a giant machine that makes a perfectly clear cube that you can buy at home. And I'm like, I'm always fascinated by that. Um, oh, and I just reviewed a cocktail smoking kit that you can get at home or 70 bucks, which is the cheapest I've ever seen one. So I think things like that. It's more gear than tech, but I still think there's some crossover there. As far as when I go out, I love getting the bill, pressing a button and paying it and then just leaving.

And this last summer and fall and all of 2020, it was not. And I've noticed a lot of places I've kept this. Uh, there's a lot of strange interaction that we've never thought about with, um, with bars about how we order and how we pay. I mean, if, if you can just hand me a bill and I can press a button or if I can order and like, you're still coming to my table, I can still ask you questions or whatever, but I don't have to flag you down or I can get out of the table more quickly.

You know, a lot of these, a lot of places I were at had 90 minutes city limits, um, just cause they were trying to keep everyone socially distance and things like that. And you know, just to have an app, I mean, it sounds strange that apps are going to change everything, but between Venmo and these touchless payment apps and, um, just ordering apps. Um, I had a really easy time getting alcohol last summer, you know, and I hope some of it stays.

Hanna (18:28): Who thought that would come back that strong. So as you know, a lot of bars and restaurants and hotels are opening and reopening. And it’s happening a lot in New York City, but also in many other cities right now. So in the coming months, what kind of stories will they be focusing on? 

Kirk (18:46): Well, I just, this was a little more on restaurants, but the article I did today, for example, I talked to a lot of chefs about where and what they thought was going to be the biggest problem in the hospitality industry in the next few months. And every single one of them said, understaffing. 

So I think we're not going to get back to the 4:00 AM bars closing and, um, I think we're still going to be working with restricted hours and restricted seating, smaller staffing and limited menus. I'm thinking through the summer, I think in the fall we're going to start seeing things if virus can be contained and all of those usual caveats, um, I think we've got a few more months of kind of this hybrid model. Um, and as hard as what we're focusing on, it's kind of, navigating that world. Cause I think it's gonna be frustrating for consumers and for the bars and you know, everyone's frustrated and I understand it on both sides. Um, you know, I also want to see, we had a lot of important discussions last year and uh, I want to see where that goes. I want to see if workers are treated better if, uh, you know, wages are increased. If, uh, uh, there's more voices being heard, just, uh, you know, I get excited. There's a bar that's opening near me called, uh, I think it's called Whisk & Whiskey.

And it's, uh women-owned minority-owned and it's, uh, going to be open. I think it was open this week. It's 8:00 AM to 1:00 AM and it's a bakery that also serves cocktails. And I'm like, if I can get a muffin and a Sazerac at 9:00 AM on a Wednesday, I'm like, that to me is a fascinating story.

It made me really interested as opposed to just be in like, it's a bar that serves food and drinks and cocktails are $16. I'm like, let's, let's do the non-alcoholic bar. Let's do the meatless barbecue. Let's do the bakery and Sazeracs and 9:00 AM. I'm like that to me is like, it's exciting in a way, because I think we're going to have to be interesting. 

Kirk (20:46): Now we call our podcast Hospitality Forward because we truly believe in our industry and that it is coming back and it will be back stronger than ever. And we already see that happening in New York City and in other cities as well. So can you tell us if there's anyone or any organization that is doing great work, that is moving hospitality forward. 

Somebody we at InsideHook have been working with has been is the US Bartenders Guild and they have their own, um, charitable initiatives within that. Um, so we have directly, um, I see, I'm not even sure if I can say directly, but we have done fundraisers for them. And, uh, we created, uh, we helped create a product line, a t-shirt that said, you know, something, some sort of dive bar t-shirt and some sort of celebration of dive bars, where we gave the money to the, uh, US Bartenders Guild and, uh, but on their site, they have a ton of resources. And one thing they helped me do is I did an article on mental health, uh, in the hospitality industry, uh, early in the year. And they have great resources on that site, on their charitable arm. Um, that was a big help to me. It connected me with bartenders. It connected me with different organizations. So I guess for me, that was really important. Um, I can't even imagine I could not. I worked at home and I wrote things and occasionally we'd get on a zoom call.

I could not imagine not knowing if I could go to work everyday or if I did, if I was going to get sick or, um, so to me, that's what became important. So I would say if you're looking for something to start with the US Bartenders Guild and then look at it through their charitable arm, and then they have mental health resources, we'll sit there. And through there, you might be able to find something that directly connects with like what you're most interested in. I sort of took a broader approach and said, here are all the resources, go forward, but there might be something out there that if you look at that list, you could sort of narrow down and find what you, uh, you know, you as listener.

Hanna (22:42): I have to say USBG has done such a great work since the pandemic started for the community. And I remember joining one of their seminars and there was a mental health expert, Laura, and she said something that stuck with me. She said mental health is everything and everything is mental health. And I thought it was so meaningful. And I think a lot of people are shy about talking about mental wellness, but let's face it, everyone has gone through such a tough time during a pandemic, I think, is that important to address that? And also if you can get help, get help that there are resources out there waiting for you.

Hanna (23:30): Yeah. I don't think everyone knew that. I mean, I can't speak for bartenders just as a writer, but I was really impressed when I saw their list of resources. I was like, I didn't know this existed until last year. And I'm really glad it's there and that they're promoting it. Yeah. Hopefully this will be one of the silver linings of the pandemic that, you know, we've become more open about talking about issues like mental health, definitely.