Michael (02:20): Hi, Hamish. Welcome to the show. So great to see you. 

Hamish (02:22): Hey, Hanna, Michael. Nice to be here. Thank you 

Hanna (02:25): We’ve known you for so many years and have always admired your work. So we’re very, very excited to introduce you to our global audience. So welcome aboard. 

Michael (2:40): All right, so first off, how'd you get into journalism?

Hamish (2:43): Well, I came to journalism probably later than I should have actually. A lot of my contemporaries probably started when they were 21 or whatever. I was 27, I think. So I had no idea what I, what I wanted to do after I left university. Um, to the point where I still didn't know what I wanted to do when I was 25, 26. So I went traveling for a year and did a lot of writing, lots of traveling, just kind of blogs, the usual stuff. But anyway, it got a good reception. And people kept on saying to me, why don't you do this for a living?

Why don't you get qualified and actually make some money from writing? To me that was a kind of preposterous idea at the time. I had no idea how you would even go about that. Um, but anyway, I took the qualification, the NCTJ in the UK. And I set about my journey to become a journalist. Now that started with grand ideas of being a news journalist, um, you know, the top newspapers and the just some work experience at The Independent in London and quickly found out that it was, it was a pretty brutal world, if you were on the news desk. Anyway, so I kind of, I always had an interest in food and I started playing around with the idea of maybe writing about food for a living.

I thought that that would be fun. Um, and I did some work experience at magazines and ended up at William Reed doing work experience for a restaurant magazine, which at the time, uh, was running The World's 50 Best restaurants. And, and through that, I kind of, I, I got an idea for, okay, hospitality's where it's at and this is what I need to do.

So it was food at first and then a job at Drinks International. And I didn't get it, actually. Um, I came second at the interview. But the guy that got it didn't want it in the end! And I didn't really look back. My editor at the time, Christian Davis, he would often choose the wine features or maybe whiskey. And I would always go for the crazy one. I was always thinking, you know, I need to learn about every aspect of the business. So I want to write about pisco, about mezcal and, and that was at the time it was just doing that cause I was interested in, in those subjects. 

But actually that was a really good grounding in the spirits industry. So, you know, there was 50, I suppose, Bars Editorship came up and even though I hadn't written a huge amount about cocktails at the time, I kind of knew I was, I was the next one in line to get that job. It was kind of a young person's job, really involved, going to a lot of bars. My editor, who was probably in his late fifties, early sixties around then kind of thought, now this is, this is one for the new kid. So I very quickly learned about world cocktails and bars and spend four or five years traveling the world going to as many bars as possible. So that's kind of how I ended up evolving into, into this specialism.

Hanna (05:54): It isn't a dead job? I mean, being able to do what we love to do and travel the world and meet the wonderful, wonderful people. I mean, that's a privilege. 

Hamish (06:01): Yeah. Um, I still can't quite get my head around the fact that people would want to fly me out to go and visit. Whenever I explained that to my mother or something, or one of my friends is not in the industry that they just kind of looked at me puzzled to like really does that really happen?

Michael (06:29): So let's circle back to Drinks International. What is our audience, our listeners out there, What do they need to know about it?

Hamish (06:35): So Drinks International is one of the only, I think international spirits and wine magazines. So it's about 50 years old, roughly, and it covers every market in the world and every category of spirits and wine.

In the world. So it's broad, I would say, but  that's kind of one side of it, then there's obviously the bars wing of Drinks International. It was obviously the founder of the World's 50 Best Bars. Um, but we still, I think have, have a, you know, a pretty strong place in the kind of bar sector as well, where we, we're quite deliberate. And our focus is very much the elite end of the bar world. So leading off the World's 50 Best Bars. And recently we launched Bar World 100, which again, focuses on elite kind of figures and most influential figures in the drinks industry or bar industry.

Michael (07:34): Actually, we were quite curious about that because it's one of the most anticipated lists of the year and kudos to Hanna for being named to the list.

Hanna (07:43): Thank you so much. I'm so honored. We're very touched. 

Michael (07:48): So can you tell us how the lists come about and what the criteria are for being included on it?

Hamish (07:56): Yeah. It’s something we talked about doing for years. At the time we had the World's 50 Best Bars, um, and the question was always, well this is a list of bars.How about a list for people? Um, but we kind of, you know, we had our hands full with 50 Best Bars. We were trying to grow that, so we just kind of put it on the back burner. Um, and then finally, when we sold the World’s 50 Best Bars, it kind of occurred to us that maybe we could do something with this now, maybe it's time to move on this.

And then the space hadn't really been filled, you know. Tales Of The Cocktail does a great job with its Top Tens in each area, but there was no list of influential people across the board. So not just bartenders, but brand ambassadors, everyone. I quite like the idea of being quite inclusive and to have, you know, publicist PR and, and journalists as well. So really, the whole ecosystem. So anyway, we're on our third list now. So 2019 would have been the first. So it was my job, really, to come up with a voting panel and then set the criteria. It's quite simple. We're just looking for people that are innovated and pushed the industry forward. Um, come setting the standard globally and inspiring others around them. Particularly those people that have addressed injustices in the bar industry, using their influence to affect positive change.  Um, so good people doing good things. 

Hanna (09:32): Also, I read every single person's profile. And, um, it was all about innovation and creativity and that was so inspiring. I felt like I was doing some good work, but the community, because we want to, and because we love the community, but after reading everyone's profiles, I'm like, we've got even more!

Hamish (09:58): I read that too and thought oh, geez. Maybe I'm not doing enough, because some people are just quite amazing how selfless they are at the same time as being successful in what they do. And the thing that's quite interesting, less than that way, because you know, in many industries, you might have a list of the most successful business people. And it would all be about money, who's doing best in terms of financial, financial side of things. Whereas this is not bad. It's who I guess has a profile, but is using that profile in a positive way.

Michael (10:38): Moving onto Class magazine, and we love the tagline by the way, “Straight-talking journalism for the serious bartender,” that really sums it up, doesn’t it?

Hannah (10:50): How is Class magazine different from Drinks International? And what’s the genesis magazine?

Hamish (10:53): So, first of all, it's a UK title. So not only produced in the UK, but the target is the UK bar industry. How is it different from Drinks international? Well, it's just about bars. It's a quarterly magazine at the moment, um, with a website as well. It's probably one of the more famous bartender magazines, I would say, especially in the UK, but I think it has notoriety around the world and it was always based on some quite clear principles. One of which is independence, um, integrity. It was clear to everyone what the magazine was about. It was never going to be a magazine that just kind of lists brands and talks about brands and has interviews from brands and pays its way that way.

It was always about bar culture. So when we relaunched it in 2016, it had actually been out of public publication for two years, I think, it's clear there's so much information available on the internet, that having a kind of archive of recipes and things like that, that doesn't work in print anymore. You have to engage in a different way. So, anyway, that was my first Editorship. I kind of had free reign to do with it what I liked. So whether it succeeds or fails, it's all eyes on me. 

Hanna (12:32): So how can bar owners can pitch their story? What are some practical do's and don'ts?

Hamish (12:37): Well, I would say first of all, if you're posting something on social media and you think it's going to get a lot of interaction, it probably means it's a story. This is if you don't have a PR company, cause hopefully your PR would tell you if it's a good story, but I always think it's worth talking to a magazine, whether it's mine or, I dunno, The Cocktail Lovers or BarLife or Bar magazine, whatever it might be, but have a word with the journalist and see whether there's something there. That might be, you know, over email, not that we're all great at answering all our emails, but it could be a Facebook message or an Instagram message. It could be a phone call or text message, but I guess all of that is predicated on having relationships with journalists. 

I think some people kind of say they always wonder why certain bars or some bartenders get the most coverage and often it's that they spend the time building relationships. As we've said, it's a people business and when you know someone well and you understand their background and you kind of, you get them, you believe in them. When they've got a piece of news, You know, it's natural. You tend to just jump on it.  

Hanna (14:00): So then obviously people like us already have relationship a with you. Uh, however, you know, there's a lot of people that doesn't necessarily have the relationship with you. So how do they start building the relationship? What's the best way to break the ice? 

Hamish (14:17): It's not always looking at how the journalist or the magazine can benefit you, but maybe how you can benefit them. So it might not be that your first interaction with a journalist is to get across your piece of news or to push your interests.

It might be actually to offer yourself as someone that can provide comment or expertise in a certain area. So perhaps about. Have a specialism in the moon, let's say, and they might, they might just drop me an email and say, “Hey, um, this is me. I work at this bar really into vermouth.If you ever want any…” and that's kind of the end. It might be just attending the industry events, going to the big ones, um, saying, “Hi, can I take you for a coffee or, or whatever?”

It’s like building any relationship with anyone, you know, you can't just wait for it to happen. You have to make the first move I think. Which is something that I've done as well over the years.

Hanna (15:17): We’ve been in business for a while, but this is what we do all the time. You know, we go to industry events to make new friends and we are constantly, you know, communicating through social media to just compliment their work or, you know, anything personal messages that we can celebrate or anything. So I totally agree with you and leveraging the industry events. Now that we can go out and little bit and start attending these types of events and also really paying attention to social media. And I love the fact that when you're said, if you're getting a lot of engagement on posts, there might be a story there. And I think that is absolutely true. And I think everybody, all the bartenders and bar owners should look at their Instagram or a social media channel as a way of pitching their story, because you never know who's watching or reading.

Michael (16:15): So in addition to being the editor of two magazines, you wear quite a few hats. You're also the Chair of the World's 50 Best Bars, which is our client. Can you explain to our listeners what that entails?

Hamish (16:23) Yeah. So the World's 50 Best Bars. I'll give you just a quick history. As a company, Agile Media, which owns Drinks International and Class magazine, we founded it in 2009 and then it was acquired by William Reed in 2017. During that period, I almost continuously worked on the World's 50 Best Bars, for about five years as the Editor. And then when William Reed took it over, um, they installed me as kind of part-time consultant, but also the Chair for Europe. So. If anyone listening isn't clear on how 50 Best Bars works. 

It's based on a voting academy, which has written a number over the years, but we're at 550 right now. So voters around the world who essentially who the World's 50 Best Bars are. So I was doing Europe for a while and Middle East and Africa. But over the years as 50 Best  professionalized and become a bigger and bigger beast, obviously I couldn't have so much responsibility, so, um, I've kind of divested some of my duties on that now. I’m down to UK and Ireland Academy Chair. So at first it was, I guess, kind of tricky to kind of get your head around, you know, I used to kind of run it and then I was the European Chair then the UK, but actually it was, it's just too far.

It's too big of a project and too, too important to have someone, you know, have too much responsibility. It's been a really interesting process and I'm glad to still be involved. And I'm one of about 30-odd Chairs now. Um, and that's just fine with me.

Hanna (18:32): I mean, it is incredible how in the World’s 50 Best Bar organization pivoted during the pandemic and really, you know, creating this amazing initiative to help our community. The fundraising was incredible, incredible.

Hamish (18:49): Yeah. We should be really  proud of the guys there. I think they did a fantastic job. I think everyone was looking at the kind of institutions of the industry, the likes of Tales and 50 Best and thinking, okay, what are you going to do now? And, you know, they were in a very tricky position. Essentially they're an awards company and event company, and you can't hold events, least in the UK. At the time you couldn't. And in many other countries around the world.Very tricky position just from a logistical point of view, but financially as well imagine.They came up trumps, they did an amazing job. Completely focused to fundraising and just doing interesting projects, like a book and various other things.

Hannah (19:35): Speaking of pivoting and innovations. We've seen a lot of innovation happening in our industry, which is, you know, a silver lining of this tough time that we went through over the past year. So in your opinion, which organization or person have you seen moving our hospitality forward? 

Hamish (19:50): There've been so many companies, people have really risen to the occasion. I mean, just in fact, we were talking about Bar World 100 and you really get a sense of, you know, people come to the challenge, quite impressively so. And mentioning the World’s 50 Best Bars, they've done a fantastic job. But also, just recently, there's been a few innovations that really caught my eye. I don't know if you’ve seen ecoSPIRITS, which is making waves at the moment. This kind of a side project from a proofing company, probably a separate company. And they've kind of developed this distribution system, which is, you know, much better for waste prevention and carbon footprint. And they're entering markets by the day. And I think this could completely change the way bars receive, buy and receive spirits. I think it's a real game changer.

So, that would be, that would be definitely something, a company that I think is doing really well at the moment. 

Michael (21:11): They're definitely one to watch. So when things do open up travel-wise, what's going to be your first destination, either for business or pleasure. 

Hamish (21:20): Probably my first destination is a bar that I've almost been to a number of times. Um, and that's The Court in Rome. It's right next to the Coliseum. You might have seen pictures of it. It's an incredible place. Just the kind of views that make it look like it's a backdrop, not an actual view, but that's run by Matteo Zed who's an Italian bartender. Um, so I'd love to go out there and have an aperitivo overlooking Rome. That would be fantastic. 

And beyond that, I'd be really keen to head out to Sydney. What Matt Wiley's doing with RE, his eco-friendly cocktail bar. Um, he's always pushing the boundaries. So those would be the two places I'd love to go to. Probably Rome is much more likely than Sydney.

Hanna (22:14): All right. Now, a couple of personal questions, not too personal, but if you had to choose one cocktail to share with your best mate, what would it be and why? 

Hamish (22:20): Well, my favorite cocktail is a Daiquiri, but this is not about me. This is about my mate. So I would take, and this is a guy that is outside of the industry, but he loves, he loves a Margarita. So I'd probably take him to Tommy's.

Hanna (23:15):Thank you so much, Hamish. It's been so great speaking with you.

Hamish (23:20): Thanks so much for inviting me on, you guys do a fantastic job. It's an absolute honor to be on the show.