Episode #45 - Holly Graham, DRiNK Magazine Asia
Hanna (2:30):
Hi Holly. Welcome to the show! So great to see you.
Michael (2:32):
We've been following your work for a while and we're delighted to have you on today. So thanks for joining us.
Holly (2:37):
Thank you right back at you too. I've been following you and I'm honored to be here even though it's exciting in the morning and Hong Kong, I'm just more than happy to be here.
I don't usually smile this much in the morning.
Hanna (2:50):
Oh, thanks so much for getting up early to do this and to help our community. So we appreciate you a lot. For our listeners around the world. Can you tell us about Drink Magazine?
Holly (3:04):
So Drink is a trade publication. So our audience is bartenders bar owners, anyone curious about the bar industry, but you know, we cater more towards the bar industry. Um, so yeah, trade side. Um, yeah. And we've been covering. The rest of Asia since 2016. And then I joined, wow, when was it? I think beginning of 2017 now.
Hanna (3:27):
And that's when you guys got nominated for a tales of the cocktail starting 2007 10, right?
Holly (3:27):
Yeah. Yes. So since I've been with the team, we've been nominated for the last three years, and I think there was one just before I joined. Um, but it's one of those things now, right now it's been the last three years. It's like, we're on a roll. Obviously we want to win one day, but. I think a lot of people say, just getting a nomination at tails is, you know, is enough to get that recognition is wonderful as well. So yeah, that's, that's always really nice.
Holly (3:56):
Yeah. And also we noticed that you have other languages on the website, like, um, Chinese, Korean, and Thai. I think it's such a great platform to have that multi-language.
Michael (4:13):
And would you say those languages represent the largest audiences for Drink?
Holly (4:16):
Yeah, so obviously because we started in China, you know, because often on the we chat platform, my colleagues will translate some of my work into Chinese and then vice versa.
If we think that it works for each other's audience. And then, yeah, we, I mean, obviously our biggest audience is in. Um, and it always helps to have like Korean and Thai because they are character-based languages like Chinese as well. And we tend to use those articles when we feature Korean personalities or Thai personalities to just expand to that wider audience, you know, some of the, their followers. Um, in English then, you know, it just opens up to that wider audience as well.
Michael (4:52):
In the recent years, Asia has become prominent as a cocktail destination, especially Singapore, Japan, Korea, China, and others. So in your opinion, what's driving this trend?
Holly (5:06):
I think Asia is very forward-thinking when it comes to cocktail innovation and concepts and things like that. I'm obviously biased moving here and I obviously love it, but I was fortunate enough, well, not for the best reasons, but I had to go back to the UK, um, earlier this year for family reasons, because travel is pretty much impossible in Hong Kong at the moment cause our borders are closed. But to me, I think London has a great scene, but I traveled the rest of Europe, and of course there was some great pause, but I feel like Asia that she quite ahead of the way. Um, I think that before we were kind of slower and it was a slow build and now we've just like, skyrocketed, um, above everyone else. And there's just so much innovation. And I think a lot of it is also access to the incredible ingredients and fresh produce that we have here. You know, I go to London and people like, well, we using this product, blah, blah, blah. And they'll be telling me about, I don't know, something like handout and I'm like, I grow that on my roof in Hong Kong. It's like, not really, I guess they're like ingredients that the West think he made, but here we're like, yeah, we've been used the most for a while. Um, yeah, it's hard to say really. I just, I just think the innovation, the depth of flavors, I think that people here aren’t afraid to experiment and do crazier stuff and get outside the box, which is really cool.
Hanna (6:27):
Yeah. And as I have to say, they are so creative and they are passionate that they will not learn. And I just love communicating with the bartenders in Asia.
Michael (6:38):
And they're also committed to excellence and precision and flawless execution. And that goes a long way.
Holly (6:46):
Like you said, that Hanna, I think passion is a big thing, you know, because so often our scene, well for a long time, our scene struggled for recognition. You know, it was always London or New York. I think Asia was really clamoring for recognition, but it so sorely deserved. So they had to be passionate, you know, and put that drive and.
Hanna (7:09):
Yeah, we couldn't agree more.
Michael (7:12):
So we hear at that you're number 12 on the bar world.
Hanna (7:14):
Oh yes. Congratulations! Based on what you do for our community, you deserve this spot.
Michael (7:25):
For our listeners, that is the list of the world's most influential figures in the bar industry. So that is an amazing accomplishment.
Hanna (7:32):
Let’s move on to the topic of drinks. What do you like most about covering bars and drinks for Drink magazine?
Holly (7:39):
To me that love started when I was the Food and Drink editor at Timeout Hong Kong, because as much as I love food and food is beautiful and incredible. And you know, we have an amazing food scene in Hong Kong, too. I think that, when I first started as a junior, the Editor previous to me, she didn't really drink. So she gave me a lot of the bar reviews to do and that sort of side to peak my interest. Um, and then I just I found that food writing became a little bit repetitive for me. Um, and there's so much intricate nerdy stuff to write and learn about food. Um, I just, I don't know, something just clicked with me and, you know, I come from a family of cocktail drinkers, my family, or loved them. My husband works in the industry as well, my best friends. And I think it just sort of slowly sucked me in and I just love writing about, there's just so many interesting trends at the moment as well and changes, for example, about soju and how, you know, soju is moving on from the iconic cream bottle I'm into like class production and things like that. I think with Asia as well, it's not even just the cocktails. It's like, there's so many amazing craft spirits coming out of our region as well. And the camaraderie as well. It's such a nice place to be.
Like, I always found journalism a little bit cut throat. And whilst I don't really think of myself as a journalist, I think of myself as bar industry because the people that I sit with better they’re my tribe, we feel the same way.
Hanna (9:08):
Yeah. Michael is in journalism. I'm in the Public Relations field, but first and foremost, we feel we are in the bar community. This is the community that we belong to and we love it so we couldn’t agree more with you.
Michael (9:23):
So you actually broached a topic that's very close to us, Soju, of which we've consumed quite a few of the little green bottles and we absolutely loved your story. I mean, here you have this $3.5 billion industry poised for disruption with these upstarts really changing the game and producing artisanal products. So how did that story get on your radar?
Holly (9:50):
So, as I mentioned earlier, I used to live in South Korea, in Seoul. Um, so being a young teacher that I consumed several the green bottles myself, and had many, many headaches. I can't take all credit for that because that was based on a seminar from Tales of the Cocktail that was put together. Um, by some great people and some of my friends, uh, so Keith from Charles H and Demi and Sean, who are bartenders in Korea, who just opened up an amazing venue that's very Korean focused like Korean spirits, Korean ingredients. And then Julia, who's an Aussie expat in Korea, but is so, so passionate about all kinds of Korean alcohol. Um, and then Douglas Park who has started stocking Soju, which is one of these craft brands. And I actually discovered Tokki through, you know, the industry, we're all linked somehow. And my husband consulted on a bar out here. Um, and they bought over Tokki Soju. So I, I tried some and I was like, this stuff is amazing, you know? It’s not the Soju that I knew or grew up with in Korea. It's so good. And they have, I'm sure you guys are familiar obviously because they started in New York. Then anyway, Keith from Charles H put together this seminar for Tails and basically I thought, oh, you know, okay, Tales is quite American focused, but this speaks to our audience. So I adapted useful knowledge into this article, which I think came out really well. Um, and I think it's, uh, like you said, disruptive is the word. I think it is a great topic to start looking at these traditional alcohols and how things are changing.
Hanna (11:45):
Other than Soju I know there's a lot of different types of spirits brands in Asia, or from Europe and America. So what are the criteria to be featured in the product section of Shelf Life?
Holly (11:51):
Uh, criteria is that it has been on the market for less than three months. And it can't really be limited release because it should be something that a bartender can put on their back-bar, you know, and have as part of their repertoire. And that it has to be good as well. You know, we don't want to waste your time or our time putting bad products on the website. And usually, you know, I guess then some really interesting stuff and nine times out of 10, it's really great. Anyway, but for me, my personal criteria as well is that I hate to say it, but you know, there's so many, there's a lot of gins in Asia and some of them aren’t really special or different. Um, so with things like that, they have to be perhaps, you know, be sustainable or contributing to that market or, for example, one of my favorite gins, our council talking about is a Vietnamese gin called Song Cai. Um, and they do so much to work with local communities and things like that. So there needs to be a story, you know, because more, more often than not, we've had the story of like, oh, friends got bored of the rat race and gave up the nine to five and started making gin, you know, and whilst that great, I like a bit more, you know, a bit more of a story to it.
Michael (13:00):
You did a great piece on new and upcoming bars in Asia. And as it happens, you, uh, included Bar Zest and Tokki Bar in Korea. So how did these pots get on your radar?
Holly (13:10):
Like I said, fortunately, Korea is maybe a good or a bad example because having lived there, I am connected. Uh, and I've always got so much love for Korea. I miss it very much. Tokki was through the guys cause we'd already been in touch. Um, and they, you know, I, I talked about the products and they were like, Hey, we're opening a bar, which is at Hongdae, which used to be my old stomping grounds in Korea. So, you know, it’s a little bit of love for such a new brand. I think it's super interesting that they're already opening their own bar. Like not many people do that. You only really see that from big brands opening bars or being some story, you don't really see small craft brands doing that, so I thought that was really interesting.
And with Zest as well, like I've known Demi for a long time and usually people just drop me a line or I will see it on Instagram. Actually more often than not, I would love, I would love people to drop me a line more, but more often than not I'll see people posting about it on social media and then I'll message them and be like, Hey, can you send me the press release or the images, you know. Often people will see after I've published the article and will be like, oh, you didn’t feature us. I’m not telepathic, you know?
Hanna (14:20):
I also say that you often profile interesting people, um, through Q and A's or the profile of those folks. So what type of qualifications are you looking for in person?
Holly (14:34):
I guess it's similar to, you know, the bottles. Whilst obviously bottles and people are different things, they, you know, they have to be doing interesting stuff. One of the main criteria for our stories is would it inspire another bartender or can they learn something? That’s one of the fundamentals of Drinks Magazine Asia. You know? Um, because of course there are fantastic bars, but I dunno, perhaps it's, I don't know, it might be like a New York style bar in Hong Kong, and whilst that’s incredible and it's a really good bar, they might not be doing anything particularly unique or something that people can learn lessons from.
Um, so, you know, uh, for example, VJ Mudaliar, who just opened Analog in Singapore and he's behind Native, you know, he's someone that deserves all the spotlight because he's such a champion and sustainability in the industry. And he says, and he’s just opened a new menu that showcases ingredients that we might be using in the future climate crisis. Um, and it's more of a vegan and vegetarian concept, he's not pitching it as that. He's pitching it as, this is how we're going to live in the future to be more sustainable. So that is a great example of inspiring other bartenders because other people may look at their operations and be like, let's be more like VJ on, you know, our waste and things like that. Um, so yeah, no, they don't necessarily all have to be as crazy and groundbreaking as BJ because he is very out there and for what thinking, but yeah, definitely something that people can take inspiration from.
Hanna (16:21):
That's great. For those who don't have a PR agency or a PR person representing them, can you share your top three tips to get your attention when pitching?
Holly (16:37):
So I think that a lot of people, and I don't think they mean it, but something that annoys me a little bit is, people would just sort of email me and expect to be written about, I guess my first tip is don't be expecting, you know, I'm one person covering all of Asia. Um, so it's quite hard, you know, so I guess be polite is always the thing. I'm always respectful when I approach people. So I would like to be treated the same. I guess the other one is come armed with all of the information that you have. Like again, quite often people will pitch me and perhaps they don't have a press release or time for an interview or photos. And of course the, you know, we need photos to put a feature online. So, you know, if you're going to drop an email or something, then just be ready to have all that stuff. And if you don't, that's also fine, but just say like, Hey, this is, you know, say it's a new bar opening, Hey, this is happening. I'll have the photos with you by this day, you know, or whatever, just, just a heads up so I can fit it into my editorial calendar.
Yeah. And I guess the third one is make sure that you stand out, you know, again, like coming back to what I just said. Is that people doing great things, but whilst I can usually pick up what you're doing differently, sometimes you need to tell us, you know, That should be your selling point, whatever it is, you know, oh, we're zero waste. Or we only use Asian spirits or something like that, you know, give me your selling point. Like catch my attention from the get-go.
Michael (18:10):
So we call our podcast Hospitality Forward because we're very optimistic about our industry. So what organization have you seen, really innovating and specifically moving hospitality and travel forward.
Holly (18:26):
This is a tough one. Um, I don't know if this answers the question properly because it's not necessarily travel, but one huge innovation to come out of the last year or so, I can't remember exactly when it came out now, but it's ecospirits um, for those who aren't familiar with, eco spirits, it's a solution to glass wastage. S basically, you know, obviously you have lots of bottles on your back-bire and people always think, oh, throwing it away it gets recycled. We also don't consider the carbon emissions that go in to or come out of recycling, you know, just those processes. So eco spirits has these things called eco totes, which I believe come in 4.5 or nine liters and basically. They have their own range of spirits and you top up, so you'll keep your bottle. And then the company will deliver this tote, this eco tote to you. And then you top up your bottles to that. So basically you're reusing your in-house bottles rather than throwing them away. Um, and they also do amazing things like planting trees in Borneo, which we all know has suffered horrible deforestation. Um, so, you know, for all that eco tote sold, they, they, uh, replant trees and things like. And I think it was pretty disruptive. We wrote about it, um, on Drink. And I know that they had lots of phone calls from other big brands that weren't our names that were just, you know, like, wow, like why haven't we done that? You know? And I really hope that the technology does get adopted by bigger brands and it doesn't become, you know, or we have to make our own one. But yeah, I really do think that that's been one of the most disruptive things for hospitality.
And obviously I haven't been able to travel much, but like you see them everywhere in Hong Kong because it was started by the production company founders, which are based in Singapore. So obviously it started in Asia and now it's rolling out globally as well. I sound like a walking advert for them. And I genuinely, you know, full disclosure, my husband works for the company, but I really, really believe in the product because I'm a huge advocate for sustainability and it was just one of those things that when it happened, it was just like, wow.
Michael (20:50):
Yeah. It’s fascinating. It's kind of like a Back to the Future kind of solution because, you know, back in the 19th century, bars would purchase spirits by the barrel, which they would keep in their basements or whatever, and fill up their back-bar as they needed it. So it worked back then.
Holly (21:11):
I think that's the way forward in sustainability. We're going to end up going back to these old things and, you know, start rocking things in banana leaves again instead of plastic and things like that.
Hanna (21:25):
With travel resuming, what is your dream destination country for business or personal?
Holly (21:29):
That's a tough one. Um, so actually, while there's been no word as the borders reopening here, it's not really a dream because it happened in, but I'm very fortunate that next year in February, I'll be judging the TAG awards, um, which is a new, and that will be in Vegas. So that will hopefully be my first destination.
And then I will be going to Miami to see my friend. And then I'm going to Columbia, you can see where I'm going with this. I'm making this trip count to make the quarantine count. Right? Um and then I'll be going to Mexico for the Patron Perfectionist final. Um, we do a lot of work with Patron at Drinks, um, and I really love what they do. And yeah, so fortunately my husband's able to join this time. Um, we have some time either side of the competition, so we can go to Oaxaca and Mexico City. But I think out of all those dream destinations for both work and travel is Oaxaca. Like I'm a huge fan of Mezcal. My last trip before this one, when I went back to London was to Mexico. So I'm a huge fan of a Agave spirits. I think there's so much heart and soul that goes into it.
Michael (23:16):
It's almost a religious experience, frankly, to get close to the Agaves
Holly (23:20):
Absolutely.
Michael (23:22):
And the food is off the charts. So on a lighter note, what's your favorite cocktail to share with your best friends or with your hubby?
Holly (23:29):
That's a tough one. So I'm fortunate that my best friend, my husband and I are all huge fans of Fernet Branca. So my best friend, she owns The Pontiac in Hong Kong, Beckalay Frank, she got me into drinking that. Um, and then when I met my husband, he was also a Fernet fan. But my favorite drink, that I feel like my obsession with this drink has got them into it, is the Gibson. But I am weird in the sense that I kind of like a dirty Gibson. Obviously a dirty Martini tastes more like olives, but I don't want the onion to be subtle. I want it to taste like pickled onion, you know? A nice dirty Gibson with lots and lots of onion and vinegar.
Hanna (24:25):
I'll join you for that drink. So, Holly, thank you so much.