Episode #52 - Robert Simonson, The New York Times, The Mix on Substack

Hanna (2:24)
Hi, Robert, welcome back to the show! 


Michael (2:25)

Great to see you again.

Robert (2:27)
Hello. Great to see you again. 


Hanna (2:30)
So you were our first guest on season one, and now you are the first guest of season four. So welcome back!

Robert (2:38)
It's nice to be back. Yeah, I remember that.

Michael (2:41)
You know, and since our first episode, so many things have changed in our industry for the better. And speaking of good news, let's start with your new, eNewsletter The Mix. Congratulations.

Robert (2:51)
Oh, thank you very much. Yeah. It started in late January on January 19th.

Hanna (2:55)
We are subscribers and we are huge fans. So tell us why you started the mix.

Robert (3:00)
Yes, so, I was thinking about it for a while. As you know, a lot of things changed during the pandemic, uh, for everybody. And everyone started to think differently about the way they do their job, the structure of their job, to kind of the framework that they had gotten used to. I'm a freelance journalist and in many ways what happened to me during the pandemic wasn't very different from a lot of people. You lost some work.

Newspapers and magazines were floundering, they didn't really know what to write about because there was this new landscape out there. The world had completely changed. I was a bit lucky in that even though my freelance income dipped, um, if I had been dependent entirely on that, I would have been in big trouble, but I was working on a couple of books at the time.


And so I kind of lived off the advances of those for a while. And then eventually the writing stream came back. You were writing about different things. You were writing about them in a different way, but, um, it made me think that I didn't really want to go back to the way I had been conducting my career, that freelance career.

I wanted a little more control. I wanted a little more independence, not having to live by the whims of editors and publishers all the time. And I've been doing this for like 30, 35 years. So you get pigeonholed as a writer and I am a cocktail writer primarily, and people think of me that way. And that's great.

You know, I'm known for that subject and people will come to me when it's time to write about cocktails or bars. But the downside of that is they will not consider you about any other subject. And, I mean I have other interests, you know, literature, food, travel, history, New York, but it was very hard to get assignments in those areas.

So I was observing and looking what other writers were doing. And quite frankly, I had never heard of Substack before the pandemic came around. But suddenly all these writers, some which I knew and some which I had never heard of, were starting newsletters. And some of them were doing quite well with them and it was getting a lot of attention and a lot of press.

And I started to realize that this may be something for me. I talked to some people that I liked and respected who were doing Substack and, and, um, asked for advice and tips and things like that. And I stockpiled a bunch of articles. I got ready.

It's been a wonderful experience so far. I love it. I love the direct connection to the audience. There is no middleman. I love to be able to sign myself, you know, if something piques my interest, I just, you know, snap my own fingers and say, okay, right. 

Michael (6:22)
We really liked the fact that, you know, you go really deep. We loved your New York 50, uh, really giving little portraits of the top 50 cocktails that people should be drinking in the city. And you know, many were old favorites of ours, but you put a whole new bunch on our radars. So we thank you.

Robert (6:39)
That was the kind of idea that. I had seen Camper English in San Francisco write something similarly. And it just occurred to me, he says, well, why don't I do that? And the wonderful thing is I did not have to go to a publication a or a publication b or do a series of emails to try to convince people that this was a good idea. I just did it.

And, and, you know, it was very easy to do actually, because I knew what those drinks were right off, right off the bat. I mean, I've been going to these bars.

Michael (7:09)
And we had no idea that you're actually hot dog critic.

Robert (7:13)
Well, I'd say that's a title I gave myself. That's the advantage of having your own newsletter. Yeah, no, it was just a hobby. I started to learn about hot dogs because my wife, Mary Kate, is from New Jersey. And New Jersey is the epicenter of excellent hot dogs and time-honored hot dog shacks.

I never thought of them in a particular way. I liked Chicago-style hot dogs, of course. But the more I looked into it, the more I realized there's a lot of similarities between it and cocktails. It’s a very old food. It's a food that is intrinsically associated with America. Um, most of the people who are famous for serving hot dogs are independent people and they're like family operations. They all do it differently. So there are parallels to cocktails.

Hanna (8:04)
My favorite part of the mix is the audio part it's short and sweet and it's real and raw. And so with that, Robert you’re now an audio journalist. So what type of new scale is, did you have to mask.

Robert (8:19)
Yes, those are a lot of fun. We call them field reports before we started the Substack. Uh, we had a few consultations and meetings with some of the Substack executives and one of them told me that Ruth Reichl, you know, the restaurant critic formerly with The New York Times and the author, she had started doing these vocal memos and just throwing them up on her Substack. Like, she'd be at dinner with some friends and she'd say something for five or 10 seconds and then just put it up there. And they loved that, the Substack people.

And so that got me thinking, well, that's a good idea that can't be too hard. It is fun. And I do it at the spur of the moment. I don't really plan those. If I go to a bar or a restaurant, something memorable or iconic or fun, and it just occurs to me, I'll just, you know, get out the phone, turn on the recording device, say a few words, maybe you know, take two, take three. You know, if I stumbled through them the first time and then I put it up there and those have proved very popular, there are some people who like those things the best.

Hanna (9:35)
Absolutely. Honestly, I love it because it's short and sweet and it's real. And you know, you get to feel like you are the hair without being.

Robert (9:42)
And I mean, the articles, uh, you know, they're short and they're long, but you do have. With the field reports. You just like, I don't know. You turn on your phone, you listen, you know, for 30 seconds you're done. 

Michael (9:54)
How are subscriptions going, Robert? Do you know where your audience is primarily located?


Robert (10:01)
Subscriptions are going well. They went well right out of the gate. I was surprised. There are three options. You can do a free subscription which you just get the Monday newsletter. You can do a weekly paid subscription, then you get everything where you pay on a monthly basis. And you can get an annual subscription, you pay for the whole year and you get everything.

You know, during the first month we made everything free and I thought everyone would take it for free and nobody would pay whatsoever. And I was extremely surprised that people paid, whether they had to or not, you know, that was very gratifying.

Um, so it's been going very well during those first couple of weeks. Of course there was a big burst, and then every week we just build it a little more.

Hanna (10:48)
I love when I see your name coming into my inbox, because I think a lot of people think that e-newsletters are one of the most powerful marketing tools. Because it's in your inbox and it’s your choice, if you want to open it or not.

Robert (11:05)
Yeah. I think it's actually sort of changing the field of writing, changing the way people get information. I just look back at the way I was, you know, doing my job, just two years ago or one year ago. And it's starting to feel a little archaic. I like doing it this new way.

Hanna (11:20)
I love hearing how you pivoted yourself and you are actually monetizing your knowledge and your insights that you built over the years.


Robert (11:30)
Yeah. You have to, I mean, or else you get left behind in whatever field you're in.

Hanna (11:35)
For our listeners who are not yet subscribers, how can they join The Mix?

Robert (11:40)
Go on Substack, and then you type in The Mix, The Mix with Robert Simonson, you could just type in cocktails. It will pop up, you click on it, and there are all kinds of subscription options right there on the newsletter. Another way to reach it is just like type into your toolbar, robertsimonson.substack.com, it will take you directly there. And, uh, if you don't see the subscribed button right away, it'll take a little navigating, maybe 30 seconds, whereas, and you'll find it. And then it gives you the whole array of options.

Hanna (12:16)
Well we are annual subscribers and we know every single time we get this e-newsletter it’s worth every penny. So our listeners, go ahead and subscribe because it's going to make you very happy every week.

Michael (12:37)
So Robert, looking at the remainder of 2022, what is your editorial vision? And are there any scoops in the pipeline that you could share?

Robert (12:42)
Well, at the beginning of the newsletter I promised a mix of material based on the different kinds of things I've written over the years, you know, theater, travel or regional food, cocktails, bars, restaurants, New York history, Wisconsin history. And I'm trying to make sure that I make good on that and post a little bit of that every week. I kind of do things on the fly. 

When we plan the articles like maybe two weeks in advance, it becomes less lively that way, it's less fun. I need to do more spirits stuff, like do more stuff about distilleries. Now that Omicron has faded and people are traveling more. I'd like to take some trips and write from different locales.

Michael (13:30)
Any places in particular you want to visit?

Robert (13:33)
Oh, well, we're planning out some, a trip to Pittsburgh, a trip to Chicago, maybe LA, I'm not going to tell you why that'll be a surprise. I mean, at present I've been sort of mining trips that I had taken in the recent past in order to write articles that were not based in New York.

I live in New York and obviously a lot of the material’s about New York, but I don't want to be too New York centric. That kind of cuts out a lot of people. I want people to know that I could be posting something about anywhere and, and indeed I do. I'm interested in all those places. 

Hanna (14:18)
So then, um, for our listeners beyond New York city, if they want to pitch their stories to you, what's the best way to go about it. Well, um, it's they just can email me.


Robert (14:27)
Um, I don't think I'm going to say my email on this podcast, but my email is pretty easy to find and, uh, you can, uh, just reach out to me. I have noticed ever since the newsletter started, publicists have been reaching out to me specifically, uh, with information that they think might be a good fit for the newsletter. And they also seem to understand that, you know, I write for certain publications. But now there's, um, now there's another publication that's added to that, you know, that, you know, if it doesn't fit there, it could fit here. So that, that brings up an interesting point. 

Michael (15:04)
How would you say your eNewsletter content is different than, let's say your articles for The Times, or you know, the other great outlets you write for like Punch and VinePair. What's the qualitative difference?

Robert (15:22)
I think the qualitative difference would be that the articles I'm writing for the newsletter are more personal. They are personal interests to me. You can be sure that anything that I read on the newsletter I'm really interested in and writing the article was fun.

For a magazine like Imbibe, I mean, it's a trade magazine and you know, it's speaking to the trade, the bar trade. The New York Times is a newspaper with an international reach. The articles I write for them are more newsworthy. You know, it's things that are happening right now. Trend-oriented articles, an article about an important new bar opening or a bar closing or something like that. 

For instance, I wrote this article on the newsletter recently because I'm obsessed with regional food. I wrote about this regional food in Binghamton, New York called hot pie, which is what they call pizza up there. And it's slightly different from regular pizza.

Now, I don't think I could have sold that article to anybody, The New York Times. I would think this does not have as much of a reach, you know, there aren't people in LA or Seattle or Denver who are interested in what's going on in Binghamton. But for now that doesn't matter because I'm interested in what's going on in Binghamton. So I'm going to put it on the newsletter. So there's a better chance for something that's a little more eccentric, a little more off the beaten path stuff that hasn't been written about before. 

Hanna (16:58)
Let's circle back to The New York times. So we really enjoyed reading your article on the reopening of Danny Meyer's Manhatta, which is one of our favorite spots in Manhattan. So for those storylines, what kind of a lead time do you prefer for pitches?

Robert (17:18)
Well, that was very quick. I was contacted by the publicist, I think in late February. And when I got there to check out the space and try the cocktails, they let me know they were going to open on March 17th.

So I had very little time to turn that around. Usually a big ship like The New York Times, it turns slowly, you know, like it doesn't turn very quickly, but this was a new story. Everybody knew about Manhatta and everybody was wondering whether it was going to reopen at all. So I was able to pitch that and they took it right away and they found space in the newspaper. I think the space between when I learned about it and when it ran was about seven days, maybe, but that's very rare.

Hanna (18:02)
For the rest of the world who’s interested in pitching you on their bar re-openings or opening, what’s the lead time?

Robert (18:18)
I would say that I'm a safe lead time. You'd want to pitch that idea at least three months ahead of the actual event. And that gives me time to formulate the pitch, send it in, wait for an answer, have a conversation with the editor. And if it's a yes, then plenty of time to interview the people, take photographs, schedule it in the paper.

Michael (18:41)
And we also enjoyed your Times story on the grasshopper cocktail, especially the ice-cream version that is so popular in the Midwest.

Robert (18:50)
That article had a surprising reaction. I actually pitched an article about grasshoppers two years ago and they said, no. But I kept my eye out because I had this feeling that, you know, grasshopper was being taken seriously again and it was being made well. So I kept looking for grasshoppers.

And then finally, the turning point was when I went to Emmets on Grove, which is this new restaurant that is supposed to have a Midwestern tavern feel. And they don't have it on the menu, but an off-menu item was a grasshopper, and they made it in the Midwestern-style, which was as an ice-cream drink. And so I thought if ice-cream grasshoppers have made it to New York, the grasshopper is back.

Michael (19:35)
It's definitely a guilty pleasure.

Robert (19:39)
That's right. And people don't have to be embarrassed about ordering it or saying they like it.


Hanna (19:45)

Also Robert, your Times story on Italian beef sandwiches was amazing. 


Robert (19:52)
I mean, as you know, I write mainly about cocktails and people. As I said before, one of the problems I have is that, you know, if I pitch a food story, they don't really listen to me. You know, they've food stories. My original idea for that was just to write a story about this hot dog place in Windsor Terrace called Dog Day Afternoon.

They serve Chicago-style hot dogs, and they were bringing in the Italian beef. And I thought, well, they're doing all the Chicago things, like maybe there's a story. My timing was bad though, because there was someone at The Times who was already working on a piece, a big piece about Italian beef. And so I quickly pivoted there's that word again, I pivoted and I said, well, what about a sidebar. Because if New York Times readers read this article, And they don't know where to get Italian beef in their own city, they're going to be mad. So what if I write something about like where you can get Chicago, Italian beef outside of Chicago and they took

Hanna (20:58)
Any tips for chefs was listening to our show on how we'll get you a.

Well, if you go to the substance newsletter, there is a thing there where you can contact me and you, you, you email me and, and it comes right to my email. So that's a way to do it. And also I'm on Instagram and anyone can feel free to just send me a direct. 

Michael (21:17)
So Robert licking, looking back at our first chat and our inaugural episode, you broke some pretty significant news by announcing your new book, Mezcal and Tequila Cocktails.

So we thank you again for giving us that scoop. And we have our fingers crossed that perhaps you have some more news to break today with our listeners, uh, any new books in the pipeline or such? 

Robert (21:40)
Uh, yes. I mean, I can't say it's a complete scoop because I mentioned it. And an early article in my newsletter, but I don't think many people picked up on it. That was an early piece. So I have a new book coming out. It's coming out October 4th and the title is modern classic cocktail. And the subject is Modern Classic Cocktails. So, you know, this is a subject that I've written about a lot over the years for various publications. The drinks that were invented in the last 25 years that stuck around and became popular with the population.


So now it's in a book. Selected about, you know, a 60, 65 cocktails and then tell the stories behind their creation recipes, of course, beautiful photography by Lizzie Monroe again. And we're just, uh, we're just wrapping that up. I think that's probably going to go to the printer, um, and a couple of weeks.


Hanna (22:36)
All right. Let's move on to travel. Cause I know you love traveling with your lovely wife, Mary Kate, the world is reopening. So what country would you like to visit with Mary Kate and why?

Robert (22:50)
The first country I'd like to visit is Italy and I will be visiting it in May. They have a bar convention they're called, I think it's called Bar Roma. So I'm going to Rome and I was invited, actually I was invited back in 2019 and then of course, you know what happened after that. It's like, we've been trying to do this for three years, so I'm going to go there and talk about the history of the cocktail revival. I believe Salvatore Calabrese is going to be on stage with me asking questions, so that is in late may.

Hanna (23:30)
Amazing, amazing. Actually, I remember the one and only cocktail Maestro, Salvatore, Calabrese, promoting your eNewsletter, uh, on his Instagram story. So I know he's a huge fan of you already, so I can only imagine what you guys can talk about. Onstage can wait.

Robert (23:50)

It'll be fun. I haven't been back to Rome in a while and I have a lot of cocktail bars to catch up on there.

Michael (23:56)
So on a lighter note, Robert, what's your favorite cocktail that you'd like to share with Mary Kay? Well, so her favorite cocktail is Manhattan and that's pretty much what I share with her a lot.

Hanna (24:10)
All right. You know, Mary Kate and I have the same interest. She has good taste in cocktails. And in husbands.

Robert (24:16)
You like vodka Martinis, don't you Hanna?

Hanna (24:19)
Oh my god, I have to start with a vodka Martini and then end with Manhattan. That's what I call a perfect night.

Michael (24:28)
Wonderful. So, Robert, we call our podcast Hospitality Forward because we're bullish on the industry. So what individual or organization have you seen really innovating as of late and moving hospitality?

Robert (24:42)
Well, that's a good question. Um, it's been an exciting time because bars are reopening and new bars are opening. It's just nice to see that life after so much, you know, inactivity, and things were just kind of quiet for a while. I think I need to get out there more to different cities and see what they're doing. Ryan Cheti of the Lyan family of bars is always an innovator. I have not been down to his bar in DC, Silver Lyan, yet, but I'm anxious to check that out. I believe he was doing a collaboration with Katana kitten.

Hanna (25:28)
The cocktail scene in DC is really fascinating.

Robert (25:34)
What are you excited about among bar people, among new bars? 


Hanna (25:37)

I just feel like a lot of next-generation bartenders are doing a lot of amazing things and having ownership of the bars and being a partner of the bars. So I think making that jump from bartender to bar owner and bar partner, I think that's fascinating to see how the bartender, you know, can take their career to the next level. Having ownership of the bars and being a partner of the bars. 

So I think for me personally, I think that's interesting and we totally agree. We're definitely seeing a thaw after a very long ice age or at least that's what it felt. 

Robert (26:18)
Yes. It does feel that way. Things, I mean, I am hesitant to say things like getting back to normal, because I don't think that will happen. I think we're going to have a new normal, we just don't know what it is yet. But there have been events in bar openings lately where it has felt like the before times.

Hanna (26:38) 
Before you go, Robert, there's a lot of bars who have PR agencies like us on board who can tell their story on behalf of them. But there's so many bartenders and bar owners nation-wide who don't have a PR agency. So do you have any tips, like when they reach out to you, for the perfect bio or a perfect pitch? Or can they just email you and say, “I’m based in Austin and I own this bar” and simply introduce themselves?

Robert (27:06)
Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Keep it personal. I don't think people should break their neck coming up with the perfect pitch that is 500 to a thousand words long, you know. Just start with one sentence and introduce yourself, you know, “Here's who I am, and I think I might have something that would interest you and can I email it to you.” And then I'll reply and say sure. And so, you know, that's a good way to get somebody's interest first. You just introduce yourself, you don't send all these words because then you just, your eyes kind of glaze over, but you know, say “Hi, you know, do you want to hear about what I'm doing?”

Of course, I'm a reporter and I always want to hear. So that's one way. And then there's the newsletter, we're coming back to the newsletter again. If you subscribe to the newsletter and reach out to me that way, I mean, that's where I'm spending a lot of my attention right now and you're bound to get.

Michael (28:06)
Alright, listeners, go find Robert on his eNewsletter, The Mix.  

Hanna (28:10) 
And thank you so much, Robert, as always. And you know, what you do is so inspiring and thanks for what you do for our community and continue to spotlighting our wonderful newsmakers in our industry, whether they are bartenders or bar owners, spirits, brand owners. Thank you.

Robert (28:35)
And thank you.