Hanna (2:09)
Hey, Joel. Welcome to the show!
Michael (2:12)
Great to see you.
Joel (2:16)
Oh, thanks for having me guys.
Hanna (2:18)
We've known you for so many years. As you know, we are huge fans of your writing because you make us smarter and make us laugh.
Michael (2:30)
And you cover every subject under the sun. But since most of our listeners are bartenders, chefs, restaurateurs, and sommeliers, we're going to focus on hospitality and travel.
Hanna (2:41)
So Joel, tell us all about your journey to journalism and how it all began.
Joel (2:44)
Oh, well, it kind of started in food. I wrote a column in high school and then I wrote a column in college, which was sort of similar to the one I then did for various publications. And I did some internships at college, like Newsweek, and then after college I was looking for a job and I got a job working for Martha Stewart on her TV show. I was the writer for the TV show for two months. And then I worked at the magazine for probably another 10 months. Then I did some fact checking around town and I had given myself two years to try and get a writing job before I went to law school.
My time was just about up and then TimeOut New York was launched and someone on the production side, who I became friends with at Martha Stewart, was one of their first hires. And he got me an interview. And I got a job at TimeOut New York, where I worked for two years before Time magazine hired me.
Michael (3:37)
You were also a staff writer and columnist for Time magazine for 20 years. And you wrote 22 cover stories, and you were also a columnist for Entertainment Weekly and The LA Times. So for our listeners benefit, what does a columnist do versus a reporter? How do you earn the title of columnist?
Joel (3:57)
A columnist as someone who writes an opinion piece. So that's what I did in college. And I developed a very kind of obnoxious and strong, first-person voice. They weren't always pegged to the news.
That wasn't my favorite thing to do, but that's not part of being a columnist necessarily. It's just the opinion, the first person nature of it. Which is weird because in real life, I tend to play the devil's advocate and kind of weigh many opinions. But as a columnist, it's fun to just take one side.
Hanna (4:28)
From columnist to now you are a freelance writer, a very versatile writer. How does being a freelance writer change your writing compared with being on staff?
Joel (4:41)
It's fun to write for different publications because you have a different audience. I guess pitching process is different. It's harder. I mean, it's also hard for me because the world has changed so much since I left a regular gig that it's hard to know what regular gigs are like.
I'm not even sure from your side what's useful. Like, it seems so hard to get the word out. I often think, like, does print matter for you or is it just the clients? Like to see themselves in print and paste it on their wall and put it on their website or are influencers highly overrated anyway? Is there any system? I feel like it used to be, you got some placement in some magazines and TV shows and maybe NPR and you were done. I don't know what the goal is.
Hanna (5:30)
I mean I think, you know, some definitely people prefer like a major magazine print story, but I think the power is on digital. You know, when you have an article on digital, you can share that on different channels, you have the power of resharing.
Joel (5:41)
I guess the differentiation for me is, how much better is it to get a story in Food & Wine rather than for a powerful person who has a Medium column to write it on, or an influencer on Instagram?
Hanna (6:01)
I mean this an excellent question. I would say it all depends on the audience.
You know, for example, I would say our restaurant client’s probably want Food & Wine because the Food & Wine audience is very well-versed on food and drinks and restaurants subjects. But if the client has a particular selling point or particular petitioning, then Medium could be great because you have a very particular audience following that channel.
Joel (6:21)
So if it's like a Ruth Reichl Substack, then that's maybe as good as the Food & Wine piece.
Hanna (6:35)
Absolutely. I mean, I think Ruth is like a legend and whatever she says, you listen.
Michael (6:44)
It just comes down to what moves the needle?
Joel (6:46)
Yeah. It's hard to guess, although it was always hard to recognize. Like I'd write something, you know, you couldn't, you didn't have metrics the way you have now, but you could tell some things were just dead on the vine. Like it might as well not have been printed.
You think people live through a magazine, but on some level they just don't notice things they’re not interested in. And then you'd write some things and everyone would be talking about it. So, it was a little true back then, too.
Michael (7:12)
You mentioned you contribute to, you know, numerous publications these days. What are some of the primary ones that our listeners should be looking for your work?
Joel (7:26)
So since November I've been writing a weekly column for Medium. My old editor from Time became the Weekend Editor of the Financial Times Magazine, which comes out on weekends. So I’m writing a second thing for him.
I am writing something for Food & Wine right now. I don't feel like I have a regular gig. I feel like I just sell things here and there. These publications, you know, change editors a lot. And I've lived in LA for so long and I do some other non-media stuff. I write TV stuff, too. And so I feel disconnected from a lot of the current batch of editors. So, it just depends where I know someone really.
Hanna (7:59)
How do you find your stories? And where do you go for inspiration?
Joel (8:09)
I mean, the best stories are things that people tell you that you've known for a long time that other people haven't been told. That's the frustrating thing of starting out as a writer. You don't have those people in your life because you're in your twenties and you're meeting people. So yeah, that's the advantage of having a beat, which I don't really have, but I still, I still know people and they still tell me things and that's where I get my best stuff. For sure.
Otherwise you do talk to the small groups of PR people who you know and trust, and comms people. And they tell you stuff and you learn to trust the ones that you trust. You get ideas for reading. I mean, sometimes you're reading a piece and there's a throwaway line where you're like, why haven't we investigated that, like, I know your story’s about something else, but where, where is this thing going? And just natural curiosity stuff.
I just wrote a piece where I was listening to a Conan O'Brien interview with Justice Sotomayor, and as a throwaway line she said that she makes her own lunch and brings it to work. And I just thought, like, what powerful people, can you picture the President or like Bob Iger. This just seems so…does Jeff Bezos like, cut off the crust of his peanut butter and jelly sandwich before he goes into work? And I was like, this seems crazy.
So I found a woman who works at the Supreme Court, who is a historian there, but she also wrote a book about like, recipes from the Supreme Court of Justice. So I talked to her for a really long time about the cafeteria and then how many of them bring their lunch and their weird eating habits, which are fascinating. And of course it's like, that's an obscure thing I heard someone say that I was like, I need to know about this.
Michael (9:44)
So Joel, you mentioned The Financial Times and you had a really epic story on how Miami became America's most important city. So how did Miami get on your radar as an up and coming town? And what was it like pitching a publication based outside of the U.S. and is the process different or what they're looking for as different?
Joel (10:05)
No, I don't think the process is that different with British publications or British documentary writers. It's pretty similar. I actually pitched that story a year earlier to The New York Times business section. The New York Times was already doing it, so they did it themselves. I just stopped thinking about it.
And then I got a call from my old out of your editor Matt Bella, from time magazine who's now editing the magazine over at The Financial Times. And he said, could you do a story on my Miami. And I was like, what do you mean Miami? He's like, I don't know. Like people seem to be moving to Miami, we'll run it in London during the winter, people want to read about Miami. People are going to be cold and miserable.
Hanna (10:52)
Yeah. I mean, it's fascinating how Miami, like literally became the destination. I mean, during the pandemic there was Major Food Group and many other New York City restaurants expanding their services to Miami. It was fascinating to watch. New Yorkers moved to Miami during the pandemic.
Michael (11:12)
They don't call it the sixth borough for nothing.
Joel (11:15)
I think Smorgasburg opens up there in a week or two.
Hanna (11:18)
Well, one of my other favorite stories was in The New York Times about Squarespace.
Joel (11:23)
Oh my God. No one saw that! When I talked about stories dying on the vine, that was one that ran in the Sunday business section on like, page three. But it wasn't on the front page of their website and I cannot believe the difference. Cause I've had stories that ran as like their story of the day, whatever they call that, and those things, everyone I know saw them. This Squarespace thing might as well not have existed. You're the only one I've heard of whoever saw it.
Michael (11:50)
It was a great story.
Hanna (11:52)
We loved it. And you know why? Because it was fascinating how Squarespace accelerated their success by advertising on podcasts. It was fascinating to read how the brand is leveraging the podcast platform as a part of their brand building. Like, look at this? How much information can you observe in a half an hour chat? You get to know the guest so close. And I don't think that there's any better medium that can really connect you yourself with the audience.
Joel (12:39)
I'm starting a podcast too, just like everyone else. I'm doing it with Pushkin media. I think they're going to, we're going to start it in May. It's called Story Of The Week. Basically, I'm taking some unpegged narrative piece of nonfiction, so like a long story from The New Yorker or some magazine or some. And I'm just going to interview the writer of it so they can tell that story. Pretty simple, straightforward idea.
Hanna (13:01)
Spotlighting the journalist, I love that idea.
Michael (13:05)
You had a crazy good story in The Time on your lab-made food dinner party. Mycelium bacon and spirits made without grains or barrels. It's like a glimpse into the future with two feet first.
Joel (13:27)
Well, one foot, because what I really wanted to do was get some of the stem cell meats, and that FDA, they wouldn't let me. Basically, I mean, they wouldn't let the company send them to me. So I would've had to go to like Singapore, Israel, or somewhere where you can taste those. So I felt like I had one hand tied behind my back here and that story, but yeah, I got to try some pretty innovative stuff.
Michael (13:51)
How does that story come about? What was your motivation?
Joel (13:55)
I just wrote something in Medium about trying to get closer to being vegan. I actually started doing Purple Carrot twice a week, which is like, I don't like meal kits, but I just needed a way to get my family to commit to a couple nights a weeks of vegetarian, and it wasn't really sticking when I did it. So, um, so we've been trying that.
Hanna (14:15)
Let's talk about bartending and about a year ago, you had a very, very tasty story on Food & Wine magazine, where you got some bartending tips from the one and only Ivy Mix. So since then, are you making better cocktails at home?
Joel (14:33)
Yeah. I was not a cocktail guy. I'm not a heavy drinker, but we have a wine cellar. I got really into wine and I don't really, I learned how to like appreciate it for my first book. I learned how to appreciate scotch and I sorta like rum. I mean, I've learned, but I wasn't a real cocktail guy and Ivy Mix really helped me. She has this one drink that I make a lot for guests. That's kind of my party trick.
But I have her recipe book and I make other cocktails from there. I wanted to see how good I could get. So she taught me over zoom. And then I brought my cocktails to Aisha Tyler, because she's really, the actress, because she's really into cocktails.
Hanna (15:20)
Yeah. I think she has her own spirits brand, right?
Joel (15:25)
Yeah! She does like a mixed cocktail thing where you can buy the pre-made drinks. So I've brought her my drinks. And she sent me straight, which was nice, but she's said it looked like I had sliced my citrus, like with my own hands, like I was some kind of crazy serial killer. So yeah. I have a lot to learn basically.
Hanna (15:47)
Well at least you started with the best, Ivy Mix.
Joel (15:49)
She's so great. I'm making my own spirit now for Food & Wine. Like I'm going to try and make a celebrity spirit.
Hanna (15:57)
So how's that going? I know you are in the researching phase.
Joel (15:59)
I called you about it, of course. I found a guy who's going to make my spirit with me and we're going to talk. But I need to be, to pick my spirit, I think is the first step.
Hanna (16:08)
What's the choice of your spirit?
Joel (16:10)
Well, I don't know what he can make. I want to go about this as if I were Drake and we were like entering this process together. I guess I would just pick one of the spirits that I am more likely to drink, like rum maybe or some kind of aquavit thing or some kind of amaro thing if that counts, but my palette is limited. I’m going with this guy, Steve Luttmann.
Hanna (16:30)
Steve Luttmann! Our Steve Luttmann?
Joel (16:38)
Yes, Steve! Yeah. He's making this whiskey with this country singer in Texas. He's going to run me through the process and he was great. You always introduce me to the best people.
Michael (16:53)
Like for real, he's one of the nicest guys in the business.
Hanna (16:56)
Honestly, Steve is such a kind, thoughtful human being to begin with, but then he's so creative. He is just the person you want to hang out with all the time. So I'm so glad that you are enjoying getting to know him and you are in very good hands. He's the expert. Honestly.
Joel (17:10)
I don't think you've ever introduced me to anyone who wasn't great, honestly. When you asked me before how you find stories, if you're lucky, you meet PR people who you trust and know your writing, like you guys just named like three things I’d written. Like different kinds. And it's like, oh, you get what I'm about? And that is a lot of work on your part. And when someone gets you and they pitch you stuff, it's just so different.
And I know from being on the other side of this, having written books, they assign you a publicist, who’s great at their job, but they're handling like a bunch of different books and they don't really get you, they don't know who to pitch to.
And so I wound up having to do most of that myself because I do a portion of the work that you're going to do, which is, oh, these are people I have a relationship and these are people who might do the kind of thing that I want to do.
So I'll pitch them. It's just so different than just a sprinkler system where you're trying to hit everyone because I get so many emails a day. I just, it would never cross my mind to open most of them. It's a little bit of a waste of time. I guess it's a numbers game. Maybe that's going to work sometimes, but not very often.
Hanna (18:24)
Yeah. And honestly, it's not about the number. It has to be the quality versus quantity. And I think if you think of it that way you can really spend time, you know, thinking volume, you have to pick and choose the people that you really want to get to know each other and really think who might be interested in what you do.
We pick and choose the journalist that we think, he might be curious about this subject. Let's get to them, you know, so it requires a lot of research and, you know, thoughtful, reading and getting to know people. So we appreciate your kind words and really, I mean, I think there's a lot of good PR people doing the right thing, not thinking the volume. So that's the people that we love.
Joel (19:10)
I can think of the amount of like, random emails from publicists I don't know that I've opened and it has to be the most random thing, which is like, I was obsessed with that as a kid, and there happened to be a book coming out about it or, you know, couple of times a year.
Michael (19:27)
So that's, I mean, that's a really good tip for our listeners to know that it has to be, you know, very specific and really tailored to you.
Joel (19:35)
And it's a relationship. It's not just an email. It's like, if Hanna’s going to send me something, I know that it's worth thinking about, and it's more than that. It's like, I know her, so I feel obligated. I mean, honestly, that's what a relationship is.
So when I was pitching my book, just going from the other side of it, if I was pitching someone I knew at Morning Show, they're going to feel obligated to respond to me. Maybe not to put me on the air, but to engage. Um, whereas, if I'm emailing someone at a TV show where I have no connection, they're not going to feel obligated. It's just, it's a personal relationship.
Michael (20:12)
So what tips would you give to our listeners if they want to cultivate a relationship with you to be able to one day pitch their stories?
Joel (20:19)
You know, I think you can't start from zero. You have to go out and it's a slow process. You have to go out and meet everyone. Like go to events and meet people. And, and when you have someone interested in your thing, like get to know them, spend as much time as you can getting to know them.
And then the second time you pitch them was gonna be so much better. Because they're going to remember you and you'll know something about them. It's no simple hack. I think it's just putting in the time.
Hanna (21:10)
I agree. You just need to spend time getting to know them in person via Zoom, or just checking their social media or, you know, reading all of the articles. That's the best way to do it.
Michael (21:21)
Well, speaking of social media, what platforms do you find most helpful for your work?
Hanna (21:26)
I have my favorite, but you go first.
Joel (21:29)
No, I don't have an answer. What's the answer?
Hanna (21:31)
I love LinkedIn. LinkedIn is one of my favorite, favorite social media channels. I get my news from, I share my news with them and I know what's going on within our community through LinkedIn. I know who's very active on LinkedIn. Whether they are journalists or industry people.
Joel (21:56)
Oh, that's good to know. I don't spend any time there. Maybe I should.
Michael (21:59)
So, Joel with travel, reopening, what's your next travel destination abroad and why?
Joel (22:06)
Yeah, I don't know if this counts as abroad, but I resolved and I take a trip, I guess we've done it twice, with my wife's parents and my mom and her husband and my son. And we rent a big house. We went to Dordogne one year, we went to right outside of Barcelona one year.
But we're just a little COVID insecure about going overseas right now, which might, might be foolish, but I don't know. So we're going to compromise, I think, and go to French Canada somewhere, maybe the Laurentian Mountains, like something Quebec City, Montreal-ish. And I figured the food's going to be great.
Michael (22:41)
Montreal bagels. Gotta love them.
Joel (22:43)
Do you!? I've been to Saint Viateur, and I think maybe growing up in New Jersey and living in New York all those years, it didn't blow me away. However, have you been to Courage Bagel in LA, which is a Montreal style bagel. That's the best bagel experience I've ever had in my life. And my Jewish family from the east coast who would never want to say that was true say that it’s true.
Hanna (23:09)
I mean, we are Jewish. We know our bagels. But then what's the difference between New York bagel versus Montreal bagels?
Joel (23:17)
Oh, the Montreal bagels are like small and they're um, a little sweeter, they'll have they have like a harder crust. They feel less doughy somehow, more crusty, more French bready. But courage makes them, they only sell them as like open-faced sandwiches. They won't just tell you loose bagels. They make these delicious, they have just amazing ingredients and make amazing things.
Hanna (23:39)
In the meantime with your lovely Cassandra, what is your favorite drink to share with her and why?
Joel (23:47)
She's a drinker, she can drink. So she likes a cocktail. I'm a little less of a cocktail guy.
She likes a red wine, also. So it's always a little more of a challenge to get the white wine into the meal. I guess, I like wine. I drink a lot of wine, so I do most of the wine shopping, but when she goes, there's always some like hipster, natural nonsense.
In fact, Ray Isle at Food & Wine had me write a whole story about natural wine. And we had this guy, Lou Amdur, who has this cool wine shop here in LA called Lou. He and his wife who is Manohla Dargis, who reviews films for The New York Times, came over and brought us a bunch of natural wine that we tasted.
Michael (24:30)
So let's move on to another subject that’s a favorite of ours, books. And you're the author of two of them, “Man Made” and “In Defense of Elitism.” So as, as a fellow author, what would you say are the greatest challenges when it comes to writing books?
Joel (24:46)
The challenge to writing anything is the story. Magazine writing pieces are short enough and the journalism tradition isn't about the story. So you can get away with a lot. And then the longer things, really learned this in TV writing, I learned so much in TV and movie writing that imported into magazine writing. But the longer something is, the more structure you need. I just find that part hard.
Hanna (25:13)
As you know, we started our podcast because we really wanted to help our hospitality and travel industry during the pandemic. So in your opinion, what single individual or organization is really moving hospitality forward?
Joel (25:33)
I've been really impressed with Nick Kokonas at the Alinea Group. I talked to him a lot early on in the pandemic. You know, Tom Colicchio, who I like a lot as a human being, he was out there when things looked like the Great Depression were coming, you know, asking for a great relief for restaurants and restaurant workers. And Nick was taking a very different tact, which was like, we all need to pivot right now. This isn't going to be over in a couple of weeks. You all need to become take-out.
And he works with Grant Achatz, and to walk over to Grant…I’ve cooked in that kitchen with Grant at Alinea. And I went on a trip to Spain with Grant. So I know Grant decently well, and the idea of telling Grant that we're going to take out food and make some pot pies. It's like, Grant just wants to paint, he just wants to take some tweezers and think about his childhood. He's an artist in the truest, most ethereal sense.
And he got that restaurant to pivot and then he sold stock to Squarespace, which is how I actually first got onto Squarespace. And just the way he got so many restaurants to see this opportunity. And just kept such an optimistic attitude and, you know, got people like Destroyer in LA, those Destroyer meals I got from takeout were so fun. It was just such an amazing way to like, experience something we couldn't experience, which was a really great dining experience.
Hanna (26:57)
I mean, he's a true visionary.
Joel (27:00)
On a business level, yeah.
Michael (27:02)
What about our listeners, when they want to pitch you stories, what's the best way for them to pitch?
Joel (27:07)
You know, we've been talking about the whole time, it's to know what someone does and where are they do it for? And to pitch them as kind of a specific take, and to kind of build the relationship slowly over time. I'm an email guy. If that was your question, I hate texts.
Michael (27:25)
Would you be able to share your email with our listeners?
Joel (27:30)
Sure. Yeah. It's thejoelstein@yahoo.com You can just go to my website and probably it's listed there or type it in there.
Hanna (27:39)
Well, thanks, Joel. This was great. And such a pleasure to spend time with you here. So I thank you so much.
Joel (27:46)
I look forward to seeing you guys in LA and eating!