Episode #7 Ray Isle, Food & Wine

Hanna (1:16): Hi, Ray. 

Ray (1:18): Hi, Hanna, how are you?

Hanna (1:19): Good! Welcome to the show and thanks for joining us.

Ray (1:22): Thrilled to be here. Nice to hear you, too, Michael.

Michael (1:27): The feeling is quite mutual. You know, you're someone who sports two very impressive titles. You're at Food & Wine as the Executive Wine Editor. And you're also the Wine and Spirits Editor at Travel + Leisure. You know, given your broad portfolio and your perspective, what do you think makes covering wine different than covering spirits?

Ray (1:29): The truth is, a lot of spirits aren't that interesting to write about. You know, they’re industrial produced. There's no vintage variation. You know, it's not too much to write about what comes out of the column still. That said, there are some spirits that are fascinating to write about. Single malt scotch, for instance, is fascinating, bourbon can be fascinating. Mezcal was completely wild and extremely interesting. And I just wrote something on that. 

I think that because there are so many great varieties and so many regions producing wine and so much difference of detail between the thousands and thousands of wines that are out there. It's a different kind of thing to write about. I mean, compared to, say, Vodka, which often is just a marketing platform and a flavorless alcohol and a fancy looking bottle.

But that, you know, doesn't mean there's not great spirits to write about. Cocktails are certainly fascinating. And that heads more towards what it's like to write about, in a sense, to write about cooking. Cocktails or a form, or take more from the chef world in some sense. But my first love is wine. That's pretty clear.

Michael (22:43): You know, you write about pairing wine with food, but also spirits with food. And I think, you know, a lot of folks are probably less familiar with that. So what would you say are some good basic ground rules for approaching pairing spirits and food?

Ray (2:59): Well, you know, I think straight spirits can be hard to pair with food, just because of the alcohol level. I mean, and this is true for anybody who tastes spirits. You might typically, you know, if you're working a distillery, for instance, in your taste experience, you almost always dilute, you know, 50 percent that you're looking for flaws. And so doing an entire meal with full strength spirits can be kind of exhausting in some way. 

I think doing one course can be fascinating. I think doing cocktails with a meal can be fantastic because you've got so much room to move in some sense, in terms of the strength of the drink, in terms of the, you know, the level of bitterness or the level of sourness or level of sweetness. And that makes it a much more kind of complex and compelling way to pair with food on some level. 

I think if you think about just having, like, you know, the shot of scotch and a big plate of pasta, it kind of doesn't really make that much sense. But when you start to think about what you could do with a Negroni variation and a seafood pasta or something, it starts to seem like that might be more fun and possibly less lethal.

Hanna (4:03): Yeah, totally. And the last several months of lockdown, people have been drinking a lot more at home, including ourselves here. So did you notice any unusual wine or varietals that surprised you?

Michael (4:17): Are people getting more adventurous or? 

Ray (4:18): I mean, what's happened with the wine market is that, you know, usually the wine market divides between on-premise and off-premise, between restaurant and retail. The restaurant market for wines, obviously, because of what's happened to restaurants, has been minimal over the past six months. And it's a disaster. I mean, it’s no question the retail market has actually been doing gangbusters, you know, as a result, because everybody's at home. People are cooking and they're drinking at home. 

But from talking to retailers, I think and I think it's a little bit of the psychology at the moment, what a lot of retailers say is that people are sticking to what they know, that they're less adventurous than they would normally be. I think that's because there's so much uncertainty in all other regards that people like, if you're worried that you may walk outside and catch a disease and die, you may just think like, I'm just going to drink the wine that I normally drink.

You know, I’m not gonna go out on a limb. But the other thing that I do think plays into this is that through restaurants, wine servers and sommeliers is an avenue towards opening people's minds to a lot of different varieties.

One to one interaction is one of the best ways to get people psyched about something new. And so restaurants have always been an avenue for the, you know, everything. From when I was on spirits from Grüner Veltliner starting to take off, to natural wine starting to take off, to orange wines starting to take off, to the Jura. All these tend to come down through the restaurant world, at least in my experience. And so if you subtract that avenue from the past six months, you lose a lot. You've obviously affect people's lives and jobs and all that. But you lose one of the big ways that people learn about wine.

Michael (5:58): Yeah. I mean, shelf-talkers at retail just can't take the place of a charming sommelier.

Ray (6:02): Yeah. And that's not to say that there aren’t great retailers who talk to people and hand-sell things and so on. But a lot of people just come into a store and head towards the Chardonnay aisle and buy what they know they like. And who knows what will come out of this, but I haven't heard a lot about any new region or recently rediscovered region taking off during this era.

Michael (6:22): But on a related note, obviously, Zoom happy hours have been one of the big cultural shifts. And actually a lot of, you know, wine producers and spirits producers are hosting virtual tastings via Zoom. So we were wondering, do you think these virtual tastings will persist after the pandemic?

Ray (6:41): I think for sure they're going to persist for regular people. You know, I think it's been a kind of discovery for me as well as for a lot of people that you can, you know, hang out with your family by means of a Zoom call when you normally just see them at Thanksgiving and Christmas or something like that. And it's easy and low, you know, low effort. I doubt it will go away. It may not be quite as frequent, but it's sort of like, wow, there's no lift here. And it's a lot of fun. 

I think with wineries, I suspect it will also keep going because I think it's a good way to interact with your customers who are not present where you are. I think one reason that wineries have been able to do this is that some of the resources and man-power, woman-power, people-power, that they would normally put towards tasting rooms or in-person interaction is now being done via virtually. And so when in-person stuff comes back full strength, which I believe it will, and I certainly hope it's soon, you know, you'll probably see some of that thin out just because of lack of time. 

It kind of goes hand in hand, you know, from what I understand, there's been an uptake as well. And people buying online, not just bricks and mortar, but things like wine.com sales have gone through the roof during this period. And I don't think that's going to go away, either. I think people realize as long as you're in a state that allows it, it's actually quite easy to order online.

Hanna (8:01): And it's so convenient, you know. So earlier you mentioned mezcal. And both Michael and I are huge fans of all things mezcal. So it was great to see your top 10 picks. And thank you so much for including Sombra Mezcal, which is one of our favorites.

Ray (8:20): I mean, what I regret is that normally doing that story, I would have almost certainly have gone to Oaxaca. And in the current era, the time frame when I was doing that story, there was no chance I could go to Oaxaca. And I also wanted to rely on I mean, I know a lot about wine, and I know a fair amount about mezcal. But there are people out there that know a lot more than me. And that's a story where I want to pull in voices from people who really, really deeply know mezcal like Yana Volfsen at Cosme, and it's an utterly fascinating spirit and agave is an utterly fascinating plant.

And the fact that there are so many subspecies of agave and they actually do play into the character of the mezcal, makes it a spirit. And I can't remember if it was Gonzalo or who I was speaking to because I talked to a lot of people, but they said that it's one of the only spirits that's made from essentially a plant. You know, and that plant has variations the way that grapes have variations. And then it plays into the character of the mezcal and the production method plays into it. And so, it actually is a wildly varied, complex spirit, that you could fall down a very deep rabbit hole on, which is a lot like wine.

Michael (9:36): Well, you speak about comparing it to wine. And obviously wine brings terroir to the equation. And with agave, some of these plants are in the ground for five years, 10 years, 15 years. So you're even getting more of that essence. So, you know, obviously you cover wine, you cover spirits. How has the balance switched or changed or evolved during the pandemic? Do you see yourself covering more spirit stories these days? Wine stories?

Ray (10:03): Actually, the percentage remains about the same. I've been covering you know, I primarily cover wine and then I cover spirits to some degree, and then I farm out beer to other people because that's an entire other vast world. But the thing that I have done has been a lot more coverage of how all of this is affecting the industry, or affecting consumers who are buying wine. 

So there have been more stories about, you know, what's happened to restaurants. There's been more stories about tasting rooms opening or tasting rooms closing or how the tariffs, which are still at these ridiculous tariffs that are still in place on imported wines from Europe which are affecting everyone down the chain in terms of imports. And so I've done more both in terms of editing and writing on topics like that during this pandemic, because, you know, typically writing about wine is not a breaking news or a news driven thing, which is very slow food, as multiple people have said. 

And this is news and it is ongoing news that's affecting the industry that I care a lot about more and more. There seem to be these urgent issues coming up that need coverage, which doesn't mean you don't do “Ten great wines for grilling or entertaining” stories, or deep dives into a specific spirit, but that has been a change in terms of the percentage of what I've been writing about.

Hanna (11:20): So speaking of stories, you know, not only is it wines and mezcals, but also you write about people and profiling, interesting people like winemakers and sommeliers and sometimes celebrities. What makes you write about these folks?

Ray (11:40): You know, people are fascinating. They're a great subject to write about. And for me, there are wine critics and there are wine writers. There are people who are rate wines and so on. And then people like me, who I consider myself a journalist more than a critic. And so I write stories. But what fascinates me is more the story behind the wine and the story behind the wine often involves people. I mean, it always involves people in some context. 

There is no wine without people. You don't have grapes on the ground. But often the people in the wine world and in the spirits world are truly fascinating. And you want to know what drives them and what their inspiration is and what makes them work the way they do or have the vision that they have about their wines. And you also have the history of the place and the history of the region and so on. But all this stuff combines into storytelling, which is to some degree, what the part of my job I love best is about.

Michael (12:30): And you do it so well.

Ray (12:33): Thanks. Thanks very much. You know, I like to think that you do well the things you love and the things you don't love. You make a game effort and hope that it suffices.

Michael (12:44): Agreed.

Hanna (12:45): So speaking of passionate people, I mean, Leslie Sbrocco one of your partners in crime, is one of the most fascinating educators in the world. And so you and Leslie are often on NBC Today Show showcasing some interesting wines. So how do you choose these wines? I know a lot of winemakers and wine producers want to be on TV.

Ray (13:06): So essentially, I choose wines that I like, that fit whatever the theme of the, whatever it is, whether it's Today Show blindfold wine tasting. The one thing that's tricky about TV is it's tough with an audience that big, I think, to justifiably recommend very tiny production wines, because the truth is, no one is going to be able to find them. 

So I try to pick things that at least are findable around the country. And the truth is, most producers want you to recommend affordable wines. That's the TV sort of push that you have to really fight to get more expensive wines on there. And, you know, occasionally you do as a splurge for the holidays or something like that. But there's a lot of wanting things to be 20 or another, which is fine. There's a lot of great wine that's 20 bucks and under. My entire career has been trying to get people who aren't in the wine into wine. And it’s why it’s easier to get people into wine with 20 buck wine than it is with four hundred dollar wine.

Michael (13:58): Would you say the same selection process applies to your online or print stories?

Ray (14:04): Well, it's interesting. So there's two kinds of stories that I do. There are service stories which are basically round-ups of bottles to buy, which fall into, could be great wines from the Santa Cruz Mountains, it could be 20 Pinot Noirs for 25 dollars. And then there are feature stories which are larger scale and maybe, you know, could be a Thanksgiving dinner with someone who's a wine producer. 

It could be you know, I did a story for Travel + Leisure that was kind of a portrait of Walla Walla in Washington that was really about the town as much as it was about the wines. So with those round-ups, because of Food & Wine being Food & Wine, circulation's about nine hundred and sixty thousand, whatever it is, the readership, something like six or seven million, according to the mysterious measurements of what readership is. And then online audience is huge, too. And everything I write for print goes to online. 

So what I try and do is, with each column, there needs to be a mix of findable, slightly less findable, pricey or less pricey. You want to give people options that are everywhere from 15 bucks to one hundred and fifty bucks. And I'll probably lean more towards the affordable side because of our audience. But I always want to sneak in some expensive things and sneak in some things that are smaller producers, or big producers sneaking in some things that are more findable and more broadly distributed. So all of them have to be things that I think are really good too.

And then in terms of features, that's harder because that's harder to pin down, because you never know what it is that's going to make a feature work in advance. You never know, what ideas you’re going to come up with where you're like, but that sounds great. That's a really cool story. I mean, I did a story traveling through the Loire with Pascaline Lepeltier who’s a Master sommelier.

Hanna (15:18): She's great.

Ray (15:19): She's wonderful. Amazing, and for me, it was like a PhD level class in the Loire, which I know a reasonable amount of the Loire. But Pascaline, who grew up there and is a Master Sommelier and loves the wines and knows literally everything there is know about the Loire. And I wanted to do some kind of story with her for some time and I didn't know what it was going to be. And I didn't know whether it was to be a feature or just a short profile or whatever. 

And it came to pass that we were actually chatting at one point and she was going back to the Loire for some reason and I mentioned something and it just kind of fell into place that this is going to be a kind of trip through some of the wines that have been the most to her in her kind of progression as a Master Sommelier and as a person. And that's how that story came together. So, the wines that appear in it, were really channeled through her, because the story is really about her. So that's just one example of how these things come together.

Hanna (16:45): Ok. So if there's any top three advice for our listeners, you know, whether they are sommeliers and winemakers or wine distributors who want to be featured in your story or in Food & Wine magazine in print or online. So what are the top three things they should remember before emailing you or pitching you?

Ray (17:08): Well, I mean, this goes for freelance writers too. The first thing for producers is just make really, really good wines.

Hanna (17:18): Always good advice.

Ray (17:19): If they aren't really good, I think I'll pass. The other thing is be aware of what what I've already done online or in print in the past year and a half. I mean, because if we literally if we just did a story about Walla Walla, we're probably not going to do another story about Walla Walla three months later. It's just there's too much world out there. Same sort of thing. If we just did a profile of the chef, we're not going to then do another profile of the same chef. And I'd be stunned how many pitches I get saying, you know, I just saw that you did a story on Napa Valley Cabernet. What do you think about doing a story on Napa Valley Cabernet? 

You're like, but I did a story on Napa Valley Cabernet that I thought, I thought it was a good idea. I'm glad you thought it was a good idea, but I’m really not gonna do another one right after the same one. And then I think, you know, if it's a story, is it a real story? I mean, is there actually a real story? And I don't know how many pitches I've gotten for so and so decided to change their lives and move out of tech, move to Napa, start a winery and name the wines after the kids. It's like, well, yeah, good for you.

So I'd like to throw a stone in Napa. You can find a billionaire who did that, and that's not a story anymore. It may have been a story the first time, you know. So I think there are other interesting stories. But if you if you've seen a lot of stories that are similar to the one you're pitching, there's probably a problem, right?

Michael (18:38): It's a common sense approach. So, now for the listener question segments of our show. We have a question from Doreen Winkler of Orange Glou, a monthly subscription wine club that I'm sure you're familiar with. So she'd like to know if you're a fan of orange wine and do you see them being embraced by mainstream wine drinkers?

Ray (18:58): Yeah. So I am a fan. I mean, as with everything, I think there are good orange wines and not good orange wines. And I have had some that I thought were gorgeous and some that I thought were, you know, just unappealing. But that's true of all wines. It's obviously a very old way of making wine that has been rediscovered. It was ongoing in Georgia forever, eight thousand years. It was almost snuffed out by the Soviet USSR, traditional winemaking in Georgia was in danger of disappearing, thankfully it survived. And then it was kind of picked up down through Georgia to freely and then kind of disseminated out through the world. 

And orange wine is sort of becoming its own category. It’s obviously its own category, but its own category in terms of what consumers ask for. And so people will come in and say, I want an orange wine. They wouldn't even necessarily care who the producer was or whether it's well known or not well known. They just want to try an orange wine, which to me means that the awareness of the category has managed to spread out beyond the sort of consistency or the in the business people. And that's fascinating to me. And that's kind of a cool thing. 

Essentially, you just have to accept that there are different categories for red or white and not compare them to either. And let your palate adjust to that and just take them on their own measure as this other thing. And once you do that and you get used to it, then you can kind of swim freely in those waters, as it were. You know, it's when you start to say but when you compare them to other wines that are red or white, then it becomes self-defeating in some sense.

Hanna (20:43): Yeah, I mean, I'm personally a huge fan of orange wine, so I've been drinking it for years. And I am one of the people who goes to the restaurant and says do you have orange wine? I don't know the producer's name, but do you serve orange wine? So I am one of them.

Michael (20:55): Well, it's kind of, it's kind of an option for people who don't really love red wine or don't really love white wine. But you get a lot of the characteristics of both.

Ray (21:04): Yeah, and they're great.

Michael (21:05): In interesting kind of way. 

Ray (21:07): And they can be great food wines. I mean, there's no question because if you structure red with some of the characteristics of white and some oxidative characters often. But when you get someone who just kind of knows their wine and knows maybe Cabernet, Pinot Noir and like has heard of orange wine, starts coming to ask for it. That's when a category can kind of grow in a big way. I don't think it's going to turn into rosé, but you never know.

Hanna (21:27): Slowly but surely,

Ray (21:28): Rosé was a dead category for years.

Hanna (21:33): Look at it now. So, Ray, we call our show Hospitality Forward because we are genuinely optimistic about our hospitality and travel industry. So are you seeing any silver linings emerging from this pandemic in the wine world?

Ray (21:54): It's a little hard to say as yet. This pandemic has been a disaster for a lot of people in the wine world. Let’s assume there's a vaccine that comes about at some point and we go back to something like what we did before, you know, terms going to restaurants. I think that people will be so thrilled to be able to go back to restaurants that there's going to be a boom in people going out. 

And I think the silver lining will be getting over this and coming out of it okay. And ideally with not too many people, you know, too much financial hardship, I don't know if it's pushing any particular innovation in terms of wine at the moment. I can't see it myself, which doesn't mean it's not happening, you know, other than masks with straws.

Michael (22:45): So, yeah, we're not too sure about that.

Ray (22:46): You know, and actually, I will say one thing and it's not COVID related, but it’s somewhat related to it, which is, you had the Black Lives Matter movement. And I think that that's been partly the unsettling. Everything's been so unsettled because of the pandemic that's been even stronger than it would have been otherwise. I think there's an urgency and a need to do something. And I think that, those questions of diversity have certainly come up in the wine business in a way that they never have as strongly before.

And I do think that that is going to push change more rapidly in terms of the diverse presence in wine, which there needs to be. I mean, there's no question that white needs to be more diverse. And so I think that if you want a silver lining, you know, that's probably the silver lining, is that whether it's a combo platter of the social movement and the pandemic pushing the social movement into visibility, that would actually be a great thing. And I think that will occur 

Michael (23:42): Absolutely agree. So this has been so much fun. But before we leave, how can our listeners find you?

Ray (23:44): Oh, I'm fairly easy to find. I'm floating around Facebook, like everybody else on the entire planet. And then the Food & wine website. Fifteen years of random stuff I've written for Food & Wine. But, you know, if you basically Google Ray Isle wine, you'll get as much of me as you could possibly want. And if you go up to Brooklyn Heights randomly on an afternoon, you might see me walking around, of course. 

Hanna (24:22): So we hope to see you soon and have an opportunity to share a glass of wine or two sometime soon in person. 

Ray (24:28): Or cocktail or a for sure.

Hanna (24:29): Yeah, Negroni. And then moving on to the wines.

Ray (25:01): Sign me up. I'm ready at a restaurant. Great. For that matter. Yes.

Hanna (25:03): Yes. Indoor or outdoor. It doesn't matter as long as we can.

Ray (25:05): Great. Wonderful to talk to you.