Episode #8 Bao Ong, Time Out New York

Michael (01:06)
In this episode, we chat with Bao Ong, Food and Drink Editor of Timeout New York. Previously Bao was research editor at Bon Appétit, following a stint as a New York Times Weekend Fare columnist. Hi Bao, welcome to the show.

Hanna (01:24)
Thanks so much, Bao.

Michael (01:25)
Let's start by winding back the clock a little bit. Uh, you began your career in journalism in newspapers and magazines, and then you left to go to culinary school. Had you been looking to change careers or was school a way for you to, you know, deepen your understanding of food that you'd be writing about. Well, what was your journey like?

Bao (01:43)
Yeah. Everyone's path is a little bit different in, um, you know, who works on the media side, covering food and drinks. Um, for me, it was always really important to have a solid journalism background. So then, you know, I always knew I wanted to write about food and kind of be part of that, uh world, but I decided I wanted to spend the first few years of my career as a newspaper reporter.

So I did that, um, at the St. Paul Pioneer Press. That's my hometown newspaper, uh, in the Twin Cities and, you know, I was covering school boards, floods, murders, you know, all sorts of breaking news. Um, just to really kind of get a strong, uh, reporting base. And, uh, I did that for about two and a half years and quit my job and moved to New York about 12 years ago. And then, you know, I didn't have a job when I moved to New York and I said, what can I do to, you know, kind of align all my interests.

And I decided to uh, enroll in culinary school, you know, I love to cook, um, culinary school was a great experience. It is very expensive, so I wouldn't necessarily recommend that to everyone, but, you know, I made it work for me and I kind of used that as my path into food media. Um, I started blogging for Andrea Strong. She had a blog called The Strong Buzz, which is very big, kind of a contemporary of Grub Street and Eater, uh, in the early aughts. And, you know, I'd worked for Gael Greene, interned for her and kind of, you know, worked as her assistant for about a year. And that, you know, that was a great experience. Um, but you know, this is 2009.

So, um, the economy wasn't in the best shape as I'm sure a lot of people remember, and I ended up, uh, after culinary school enrolling in grad school at Columbia and decided to enroll in this master of arts, um, arts and culture journalism programming. Used that as my path. Um, I got an internship at The New York Times and kind of went back to news reporting.

Um, but I, I said, you know, 'Hey, here's an opportunity. Take it.' And you know, did a lot of reporting on the Metro desk and kind of, um, worked myself over to, um, what was called the dining section before being called food now and, you know, interned on that desk and then eventually kind of became a regular freelancer for a few years. And um, kind of used that to kind of freelance for a while, and then, you know, became a research editor at Bon Appétit and then now I'm at Timeout and I've been at Timeout for about a year and a half now.

Michael (04:14)
Well, congratulations. So, we know you love to eat out and we've been seeing you posting some amazing home cooked meals on Instagram. So how has the pandemic changed the way you look at food or are you enjoying cooking more now or have you had it up to here and you're ready to go out and eat out again?

Bao (04:31)
Yeah, it's interesting because I feel like I spent the last decade going out for dinner or drinks, you know, easily four or five nights a week. Um, it's really fun when you first do it, but then after a while, you know, you want a night just to yourself or you just want to get takeout or eat a bowl of cereal. But um, so it was kind of an actually welcome break for me to be able to cook, uh, at home, which I love doing.

So, um, you know, I have this huge list of bookmarked recipes that I've collected over the years and I was finally able to make a dent in it, uh, since the pandemic started. So I've really enjoyed that. You know, I do miss going to restaurants and bars. You can't recreate that kind of experience that theater of going out as a lot of people like to call it.

And, you know, obviously we want as many restaurants and bars to survive this pandemic, you know, and there's outdoor dining at the moment in New York, but it's not quite the same. I still try to go out. Uh, you know, a few times a week, try to support the restaurants. I haven't gotten tired of cooking. I think now that the weather's, uh, now that we're into fall, I think I'm getting back into it a lot more. And, uh, it'll be interesting with indoor dining coming back in New York to see how we all feel about that. And, you know, how, how New Yorkers respond to that as well

Hanna (05:57)
Definitely. So TimeOut New York magazine is synonymous with going out and given the closings of many bars and restaurants and or limited outdoor options during this pandemic, how has the, the magazine itself pivoted to stay relevant?

Bao (06:15)
Uh, well, pretty early on, you know, um, obviously, you know, TimeOut is a global brand with a lot of recognition. Uh, we, became TimeIn, and it wasn't until this summer, when, when the city started kind of reopening, um, that we switched back to TimeOut to focus more on what everyone knows us for.

But, um, yeah, so, so I think that was a brilliant move among my colleagues to make that decision to kind of rebrand ourselves as TimeIn, for example, I, yeah, I started writing about recipes for the first time, which is not something TimeOut ever really did. And that was not something that readers come to TimeOut for. But, you know, we published a recipe on, um, Junior's Cheesecakes. I baked a Junior's Cheesecake for the first time in my life and it actually turned out pretty well.

Michael (07:06)
How'd you get the recipe for that?

Bao (07:07)
Well, they did publish a book a number of years ago, but, um, you know, they were very happy to share their recipe. Um, not everyone does that, but you know, it was, you know, it was fun for me just because I was able to use some of my cooking skills, which I don't use as much in TimeOut in terms of actually testing a recipe or doing an Instagram Live of recreating the Junior's Cheesecake.

And there's and because we have so many restaurants and bars in New York, um, you know, people are doing so many different creative things to stay in business. So there's not a lack of stories. If anything, I feel, um, it was difficult to actually keep up with all the news.

Michael (07:46)
Well, speaking of keeping up with all the news, you know, how, how do you stay on top of it?

Bao (07:51)
You know, that's difficult. I, you know, um, I try to make sure that we cover a mix of, you know, kind of all the heavy hitters, that you know, all the restaurants and bars that  everyone talks about and reads about. But we also at TimeOut want to write about places that don't always receive tons of press or that you know, that you don't know about just because it's not in downtown Manhattan. I recently wrote about a Burmese restaurant that's located inside a subway station here in Queens.

Um, we wrote about a woman who bakes challah in her apartment on the Upper East Side. Um, she was, was trying to find work and couldn't do that during the pandemic and she decided to start baking. Everyone was doing sourdough and she's like, you know, she can't find yeast. So she's like, well, I'm going to learn how to make Challah. And now she, and, you know, she's kind of in that social media world as well, so she was very good about promoting her challah and she had a popup at a pretty popular bakery downtown recently. And so, you know, we want to write those stories because I think people want to know what's happening locally still.

Hanna (08:57)
So how are you finding these stories? How did you find that lady?

Michael (09:01)
Or did she find you?

Bao (09:01)
It was on social media. I think I saw someone tag her in a post, and then I was looking her up and I was like, wait, no, it was written about her. And then I just reached out to her and said, "We're interested in hearing about your story.

Would you be open to chatting on the phone for a little bit? Uh, I can't promise a story right away, but it sounds like you're doing something really cool. I'd love to learn more about it.' And then all the pieces kind of fell together and, um, yeah. 

Hanna (09:28)
The power of social media right there.

Bao (09:30)
Definitely.

Hanna (09:31)
So Bao, um, you know, this used to be the time of the fall review, but, uh, that isn't really the case this year. So that said, um, we are still seeing new restaurants and bars opening in New York City. So in your opinion, uh, what neighborhoods are leading the charge?

Bao (09:50)
Um, yes. I don't know if I see a concentration within a specific neighborhood where all the businesses are opening up. Um, Brooklyn has been, you know, so hot for so long, and you know, there continues to be, um, openings of restaurants and bars. Um, if I had to generalize a little bit, I don't feel like I've seen the big restaurant groups opening up new businesses.

Um, I don't know exactly why. I don't know. Maybe it's a, it's a cost issue. Maybe they're being a little bit more conservative. Um, and maybe that's a chance for, um, you know, smaller businesses to kind of step in, you know, people who are very entrepreneurial, you know, so you're seeing people. You know, hustling as a lot of new Yorkers is to try to open up and give themselves an opportunity.

And I think we'll keep seeing more of these independent, you know, smaller businesses giving it a try because people always want to eat and drink especially in New York.   

Michael (10:52)
You wrote a story recently on the most in demand outdoor dining reservations, which outdoor experience has really stood out for you over the last several months.

Bao (11:02)
I was at Buvette recently, it's just as a really nice experience. You know, the tables were spaced apart. You know, they definitely had a, had a system going with how they clean the menus or the tables.

Um, you know, they wanted you to wear your mask when your server was at your table. Um, yeah, I think part of it has to do with, you know, it's on, um, Grove Street so, you know, it's very cute there. And, you know, there was a cellist playing and they had a cornerstone, so I felt very, you know, you couldn't, you couldn't make it any more New York in that moment, but…

Michael (11:39)
Sounds very transporting.

Bao (11:40)
Yeah. But then I also heard though at Buvette, you know, it's crazy on weekends, there's lines down the block for brunch apparently. And I don't know if that would have felt the same as on that Monday or Tuesday night that I went a few weeks ago.

Hanna (11:53)
So we are excited to see, even with a limited capacity, um, you know, indoor dining is coming back, which is great for the city, but at the same time, what do you think will be the greatest challenges from a health and safety point of view? Both for guests, but also the business owners, restaurants and bar owners?

Michael (12:14)
And their teams?

Bao (12:16)
I think it's very much TBD, whether what a second wave might look like in the city. And I think personally, you know, I, I'm too nervous to kind of be indoors at the moment. So everyone has to kind of different comfort levels.

So I think safety-wise, I think restaurants are prepared to make sure that, you know, guests are as safe as possible and their employees as well. Um, but at 25% capacity, at least initially everyone that I've talked to said that, you know, while it's like, great start it's by no means, you know, you can't survive on that. Uh, you can't just pay 25% of your rent.

Hanna (12:59)

Right.

Bao (13:00)

And even at 50% it's still difficult.

Hanna (13:03)

Exactly.

Bao (13:04)
Yeah. So it'll be interesting to see, you know, now that we're heading into, um, flu season and when we could be more at risk to see how this pandemic unfolds, and if anything, I think we've just learned that this year is unpredictable.

Michael (13:19)
Absolutely. Interestingly, so many restaurants offer private dining rooms for parties and dinners, and traditionally they've been kind of a hard sell, except during the holiday season. But do you see that changing post pandemic as more guests want cozy experiences exclusively with their own small groups of friends and family?

Bao (13:42)
Interesting. Um, maybe that's a story idea for me. Um, no, I haven't heard about that, but you know, I, I, I think there are diners that definitely people who would feel more comfortable being in a private room with their family or their pod of friends versus being in a more open dining room or outdoor setting while that's still possible, but that, you know, like, I don't know, like, yeah, I don't know how restaurants feel. I mean, the restaurants want the business obviously, and they're trying to balance, you know, the health and safety of their employees.

Um, but also kind of balancing their business needs. But, um, No. Yeah, I could definitely, I see that being in demand because, um, people are still going out. Um, and, and, and for the story that we worked on about the most kind of in demand reservations for outdoor dining at the moment, you know, some of these places are booked up weeks in advance still. So I think there's, there's definitely the demand for dining at restaurants, whether it's outdoor indoors, private dining rooms, I don't think that's going away.

Michael (14:51)
No question about that.

Hanna (14:52)
Yeah. So, so Bao TimeOut New York is known for its 'Best Of' list. So with this pandemic affecting a good part of the year, how are you approaching the list right now, you know, for, especially the best restaurants, best bars, which we are huge fans, uh, you know, reading each year.

Bao (15:14)
Um, you know, it's, it's been really tricky, you know, we didn't update our best of lists the first few months, just because, you know, we're kind of in this new territory that we didn't really know how to navigate, you know, in June and July, once, you know, outdoor dining became, uh, an option. Um, that's when we had to start thinking about, you know, how do we handle these lists? And, uh, do they really reflect, you know, 'Best Of,' you know, how much do we promote these lists?

Because we haven't been to all these spots and a lot of them have changed, um, you know, not only their menus, but you know, kind of the concept or the theme of their restaurant or the bar. Um, So, you know, we've been trying to, uh, make sure that we're deliberate about our updates. So our best restaurant list right now is actually at 50 restaurants versus 100. You know, it was not really manageable to do that. And obviously all the best restaurants were places that currently offer outdoor dining.

So, uh, we've had to be on top of updating those lists and kind of keeping track of, you know, Uh, the restaurants and bars and what they're offering and, and it's, you know, and to be honest, it's been tougher for bars just because we don't really go to a bar to be six feet away from someone. And, you know, bars have had to, you know, are put in a spot where they have to now serve food or essentially become a restaurant to stay in business.

So we're constantly asking ourselves those questions, like, do they have to offer to go cocktails? And you know, if there's one bar that seems like they're too crowded, or they're not good about social distancing for their guests, do we factor that in? There's a lot of questions that we have to ask ourselves and I think we're constantly trying to find the right balance.

Michael (17:01)
Yeah. I mean, I think the whole concept of what the best restaurant or what the best bar is has changed and has evolved under the circumstances.

Bao (17:11)
Definitely.

Bao (17:12)
I read somewhere that, uh, your first official post pandemic dinner is going to be in Flushing, Queens munching on dumplings and noodles.

Hanna (17:21)
Yum yum yum.

Michael (17:22)
So do you have any specific spots in minds and would you mind some dinner companions?

Bao (17:29)
Always! So excited. I want to, I always want to eat more dumplings and noodles.

Hanna (17:32)
Same here!

Bao (17:33)
I actually moved to Jackson Heights, um, kind of middle of the pandemic. And I play, I played a lot of tennis and, uh, the US Open site is in Flushing not very far away from me, and obviously wasn't able to play tennis for the longest time. So it was kind of like tennis and great food and Flushing. So that's, that was kind of my, one of my picks there.

You know, um, but I like White Bear for their dumplings. Um, there's so many places, um, in Flushing that I haven't explored and that's one of the reasons I wanted to live in Queens, just to be closer to all these restaurants that I haven't been to and just kind of live, live in the middle of everything.

Hanna (18:13)
Yeah. I mean, I have to say Flushing is like a culinary haven.

Michael (18:17)
It's a, it's a wonderland.

Hanna (18:19)
For people like us who love to eat. So, um, in coming months, what kind of stories will you be working on?

Bao (18:26)
You know, we want to take kind of a, a big picture, look in terms of food and drink, you know, how has the industry changed? You know, what has been the impact of the pandemic in the past six months? You know, um, you know, we want to talk about the future of indoor dining, um, and how that will shape.

And like we just talked earlier, you know, restaurants and bars are still opening and we're still covering those. We want to cover those new openings and keep New Yorkers in the loop about what's new, uh, what's happening, uh, on the scene.

Hanna (18:58)
Yeah. So important. Yeah.

Michael (18:59)
So, let's talk about pitches. What were some of the top three pitches that you received recently that wowed you. And what were some pitches that were immediately deleted from your inbox?

Hanna (19:11)
I hope it's not my email.

Bao (19:14)
Um, wow. It's kind of hard to pick out just a few, because there's so many, but I feel like the pitches that resonate the most tend to be a bit personalized or they just kind of happen organically. Like, you know, someone will email me and say, Oh, I have an idea. Or like, Oh, did you know this is happening? And then, you know, we kind of get into a conversation and I feel like those stories tend to work out the best, um, pitches that tend to not do as well, or, you know, where I know this is like, you know, I'm just kind of like one of 500 people that this was email blasted to.

And, you know, I like to have those press releases in those pitches on hand, because you never know when it might come in handy for another story, or, you know, when you're working on a story and I just will just go through my inbox and type in something like, okay, I don't know, restaurants using air purifiers or something like that. You know, it might not have been a fit, uh, that particular day, but maybe two, three months down the road, it will be. Um, so I don't mind getting those releases, but I think the success rate is much lower.

Hanna (20:22)
Can you tell us top three things that our listeners, when they pitch you, shouldn't be doing? Top three don'ts.

Hanna (20:30)
Uh, make sure you're addressing the right person. It happens very often where, um, either I've been confused with someone else or…

Hanna (20:41)
That's no good, no good. 

Michael (20:43)
No, you're, you're you're one  of a kind Bao.

Bao (20:46)
But, um, you know, you know, like I respond to most people, whether, you know, if it's a short email or not, but now I feel like, ah, if someone didn't take, you know, the 30 seconds to make sure it was addressed to me, even if it's like a mass email, then I'm less inclined to respond back. Um, second. Just make sure that the story you're pitching hasn't been covered already.

Um, that's a quick, okay pass or delete. Third, um, photos. I know it's hard. I know it's difficult, especially in a digital space, whereas digital first in so many cases, when the art doesn't exist it's hard to sell a story, you know, once in a while, you know, if the story is amazing, obviously we do all we can to make it work.

But if there's a pitch and the art is weak and it doesn't have to always be professional, but if there's no art, then it's just very difficult to, you know, run away with the story. So, and sometimes like if the pitch is a little bit weaker, but they're are great photos, you know, sometimes that gets that, you know, that opens other doors.

Michael (11:55)
As a writer that's very humbling.

Hanna (21:57)
Yeah. But, but don't you think that with this uh challenging time, it's hard to get, um, professional photography.

Bao (22:05)
Mhm, yeah.

Hanna (22:06)
So are you a little more forgiving to less professional photos that comes to your way?

Bao (22:13)
Definitely. Yeah, definitely. And you know, in the range of like professional photography varies too, you know, sometimes the photos are too stylized or they're too product driven and that doesn't necessarily work for our audience, you know, especially on social media, you know, a lot of photos know that aren't shot by professionals do really well still. It's just more to have a visual component. So like, you know, it's just something to kind of help give a visual, um, to help tell your story is very important. And it doesn't always have to be shot by a photographer, but if it's high res and is horizontal, those are like two great things.

Hanna (22:51)
Okay, listeners, remember: it has to be horizontal, not vertical.

Bao (22:56)
Give us the photo credit too, so that no one gets upset and credit is given where it's due.

Michael (23:00)
Absolutely.

Hanna (23:01)
Exactly.

Michael (23:02)
Okay, now for the listener question segment of the episode, we have a question from Ed Schoenfeld, owner of RedFarm and Decoy in New York City, who's a 50 year veteran authority on Chinese food and the whole food scene in New York City. So Ed wants to know how you envision the future of dining in New York City. Will it be a return to February 2020 before the pandemic and everything was normal? Or do you envision something completely new and different?

Bao (23:32)
I think a lot of that will depend on how long this pandemic goes for. Uh, the longer it goes, the more restaurants and bars we'll see that will just permanently close. They can't make it. And I think, you know, we're in for a difficult winter, you know, and it will be challenging because, uh, you know, with the limited capacity, um, and you know, once it's, once it's too cold for outdoor dining, um, that's a completely different challenge. If the coronavirus virus like magically disappeared today and we felt everything safe then I, then I would be confident in saying things would be back to February 2020 eventually.

Um, but if we're into the spring early summer, summer, then I think there's like serious questions about what dining will be like, because I think a lot of restaurants feel, you know, restaurant owners feel that, um, there's not enough support from the government. You know, like if you want us to provide, you know, healthcare for our employees, you know, there has to be a system, you know, that makes it possible, you know, for smaller businesses to be able to do this.

There's a lot of conversations about how the industry hit might, you know, like maybe this is the opportunity for the industry to completely reinvent itself, to change how it operates from the kitchen to the front of house, when we're talking about issues of compensation and restaurant culture, bar culture, healthcare, you know, even the, how people want to dine out. Um, some people think "Oh, maybe it'll all be chain restaurants." I don't think that will be the case in New York.

Michael (25:18)
I certainly hope not.

Hanna (25:21)
So we call our podcast Hospitality Forward because we truly believe that our industry will come back, despite huge challenges that you, we are going through. So in your opinion, what kind of innovative things are you seeing or hearing about the restaurants and bars are doing right now that takes our hospitality forward?

Bao (25:44)
I think restaurants and bars were, you know, they were kind of forced to do this, but, you know, like just to be more accessible in the home, you know, for people, you know, just whether it was takeout or delivery or putting together, um, packages where you could cook meals from the restaurants at your stove because they can't be open currently, or because people feel safer in their own homes.

You know, bars are doing canned cocktails. Everyone is feeling the pressure to be innovative and try to figure out how to get their food or their drink, you know, what they're known best for, into the hands of consumers. Because I think that demand is still there. Uh, and always will be because there's something to be said about someone, you know, although kind of different in this case, but kind of preparing food for you or food that's not cooked by you by yourself. It takes on a different meaning, it's a different experience. So that is that hospitality that everyone craves and that's why it's such a huge industry in New York.

Hanna (26:48)
And you know I love the fact that, um, you know, uh, mayor said once, uh, New York City is the greatest restaurant city in the world. And, I agree. And I think the role of TimeOut, uh, you know covering our industry and the city is very important, so we thank you for what you do, Bao. We love what you do, and thank you so much.

Bao (27:12)
Oh, thank you. I'm just happy to chat.

Hanna (27:34)
Great thank you so much, Bao, it's been great. We hope to see you soon at a restaurant somewhere in the city.

Bao (27:42)
That's a great idea. Thank you, Hanna and Michael.

Michael (27:43)
Bye bye.

Hanna (27:44)
Bye.